The Rick and Bubba Show... my email to them... - Christian Forum - Bible Forum - Christian Religion Bible Study Forum

broSonnie · #1 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 01:25 PM

I thought I would share my email to Rick and Bubba of the Rick & Bubba show. Some of you may be aware of these guys. Here's a link to their website: http://www.rickandbubba.com/

Quote:

Hi Rick and Bubba,

My wife is a long time listener of your program and we've both watched our share of your shows on TV. This morning she sent me an email...

Hey babe - I need a favor from you...

I went to the Rick and Bubba Show website this morning after listening to them yesterday morning and this morning. They talk a lot about religion on the show so I decided to see if they had anything on their website about their belief.

I need you to go to rickandbubba.com and on the left side you will see Faith. Click on that and I know you already know what its going to say. They list only 4 things you need to do to be saved and the 4th being praying the sinners prayer. Nothing anywhere about being baptized. That needs to be added to their to do list don't you think and remove that sinners prayer hogwash!

It made me so mad that they are misleading people and they need to be corrected so I thought you would do a better job than me. I'm afraid I would not word it right. Are you interested in doing this or do you think we should just not bother. They do have a lot of listeners and I'm sure many visit their website. They tell their website address everytime they begin their show after a commercial break. You really need to think about calling them one morning to teach them a thing or two. I'm sure Rick would like to discuss this.

Let me know what you think...

So I'm thinking, what should I do... should I email them, will they even listen, what would God want me to do? I think the last question I ask myself is the most important one, so here I am... I'll take a shot and plant the seed.

The first thing I'd like to ask you guys is if you have really ever studied the Bible that much or is most of what you have learned simply been from other men that you have trusted and respected? You know Jesus says that only a "few" will find eternal life and that "many" will follow that broad and easy path to destruction. Then He tells us one of the reasons why this is so... because many people will fall into the hands of false teachers dressed in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:13-15) My point is that there are many today that appear to be sincere in their beliefs, however they are sincerely wrong. Yet they continue to lead people astray and in the wrong direction on how to be saved. They ignore much of what the Bible says and rely on their own thoughts and emotions, although God clearly says it is better to trust in Him than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8) We all should be sure that we study to show ourselves approved unto God and be able to rightly divide the word of truth, God's word, the Bible. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Now you guys seem like a couple of pretty smart guys and someone who likes to investigate things really well. Of course if you do learn the truth it will probably end up costing you some listeners... one reason I hesitated to even attempt contacting you. Generally if it interferes with your livelihood... it makes it harder to repent and change. If you stand to lose something, it does make it tougher, but I reflect back on what Jesus says, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:26) And I pray that maybe you will learn the truth and make that soul saving change.

All this brings me to the link my wife mentions in her email to me... your Faith link. I looked at it and there is no doubt it is full of false teachings on how to be saved. This site that you link to teaches that a person much pray a prayer to be saved. Most people would refer to this as the "sinner's prayer". This sinner's prayer was originally started during the Billy Sundry era and was made popular by Billy Graham. That's right, it was created by mere men, not Jesus or the apostles. I challenge you to find the sinner's prayer in the Bible. I'll go one step further, I challenge you to find one person under the covenant of the New Testament that ever prayed to receive Christ in order to be saved. Unfortunately for you and many others, it cannot be found because it's a man-made tradition. It might be helpful if you studied the story of the apostle Paul's salvation. He fasted and prayed in the temple for 3 days. What better time for God to wash his sins away, there is no doubt Paul believed, repented and confessed that Jesus was Lord. Why did his prayer not cleanse him of his sins? Our answer is found in Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Another story of a man who prayed is Cornelius. He was a God fearing man and prayed daily, yet the angel of God told Cornelius to go find Simon Peter, who would tell him what he must do to be saved, "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." (Acts 11:14) You see, Cornelius prayed, but prayer is not what saved him. The full and very interesting story is in Acts chapter 10. The bottom line is that prayer is not what saves us.

So you may ask, if praying the sinner's prayer is not what saves us, then what does?

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

So let's hear what the word of God says.

There is no doubt we must hear as shown above. We must also believe...

John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Jesus says we must repent....

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

We must also confess Jesus is Lord. Notice how the eunuch confessed...

Matthew 10:32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

Acts 8:37b "And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

We must be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins...

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Romans 6:3-5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

When Peter preached the first gospel message preached after the Great Commission given by Jesus, those people who heard were pricked to the heard and ask what they had to do... "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

In order to continue to be saved we must remain faithful unto death...

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Okay... so I know the first thing you may be thinking or someone you consult may ask, what about the thief on the cross? I may as well nip that in the bud too. Some people claim the thief was not baptized, therefore we do not have to be baptized. This is really a poor excuse to try to cover up the truth. This in no way proves baptism is not necessary... it cannot prove it because then we would have a contradiction in the Bible. However, proper study will bring the truth to the table top every time. A couple of Christian brothers could not have explained it any better.

Please notice the following points regarding the forgiven thief on the cross:

Can one be so sure that this thief was never baptized? - Multitudes had come to John from all surrounding areas to be baptized of him: “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan…” (Matthew 3:5, 6). John obviously had baptized a great number of people, but Jesus’ disciples had baptized even more people than John (John 4:1, 2). Is it not possible that the thief could have been among these great numbers of people who were baptized? From the very words of the thief we infer that he had been taught about the coming kingdom (Luke 23:42), and the kingdom is exactly what John, Jesus, and the disciples had been preaching during the time of these baptisms (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7). This is further evidence that he very well may have been baptized. It should also be noted that the Bible teaches that it is quite possible to sin again after one has been baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 8:18-24; 1 John 1:8). This thief could have committed a theft after his baptism. It is very presumptuous to claim that this thief had never been baptized.

Can one be so sure that the thief was not born into a covenant relationship with God? - This thief apparently lived and died in Palestine, which is strong evidence that this man was a Jew. The Romans did not crucify their own citizens, so we know that he was not a Roman. If the thief was a Jew, then he was born into a covenant relationship with God, and had been a child of God all his life. If that was the case, this was not an alien sinner who became a child of God on the cross! He would have been an erring child of God seeking forgiveness, which would mean that this account cannot be used today as an example of how a person can become a child of God!

The thief was forgiven while living under a different covenant – We live under the New Testament, which was not established until after the death of Christ: “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth” (Hebrews 9:16, 17). With the aforementioned Scriptures in mind, please consider the example of a family inheritance – a person’s will is not put into effect until the death of that person. Robert R. Taylor, Jr. noted that “While yet alive he [the testator] may do with his estate as he pleases. But subsequent to death his estate is totally subjected to the ways of his will.” After death the will becomes effective, and one must do what is specified in the will to receive the inheritance. The Will of Christ was not in effect when the thief was forgiven because Christ had not died yet – the New Testament had not been established. The thief was forgiven under a different covenant; thus this account does not apply to us today!

Jesus often forgave sins at His discretion while on Earth – While Jesus was on Earth, He personally forgave certain people’s sins (Luke 5:20), but Jesus does not appear to us in person today and tell us that our sins are forgiven! Remember that before the Testator died He would do with His estate as He pleased (forgive sins at His discretion), but after His death the Will became effective (Hebrews 9:17), and one must now do what is specified in the Will to receive the inheritance. The New Testament Will says that we must now believe and obey the Gospel to purify our souls, avoid eternal punishment, and receive the inheritance (1 Peter 1:22; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 1:4).

The thief on the cross cannot be used as an example of how someone can become a child of God today. No person alive today is living under the same conditions as this thief was. When one studies how people were converted after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, it is clear that those who wished to become children of God were never instructed to pray, nor to merely “invite Jesus into their hearts,” as many would have us do today. In the book of Acts the consistent recording of water baptism in conversion accounts is practically overwhelming, and the results which follow baptism reveal its divine purpose. Obviously baptism is a vital part of God’s Plan for saving man, and is necessary “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38).

Consider this story I once heard during a Gospel Meeting...

Abraham Lincoln never paid one dime in income taxes. Let's suppose you write a letter to the IRS telling them that you are not going to pay anymore income taxes because Abraham Lincoln never paid one dime in income taxes. You advise them that they have received your last check. No doubt you will receive a swift letter back from the IRS informing you that in view of the fact that Abraham Lincoln was never under an income tax law... in view of the fact that he lived and died before there ever was an income tax law... he could not have paid income taxes had he wanted to pay income taxes. We will be expecting your check by return mail.

If we can understand this analogy then we ought not have any problem understanding why the thief on the cross did not have to be baptized under the baptism of the Great Commission. The thief on the cross lived prior to the Great Commission while we live under the Great Commission. The thief on the cross lived before the consummation of the gospel of Christ... there is no possible way he could have obeyed the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ even had he wanted to.

So enough of the nonsense... the thief does not in any way prove baptism is not necessary for salvation. It's not even close.

I pray that both you guys will consider not what I say, but what God inspired the writers of the Bible to write. Don't ignore any of it, consider it all in harmony. It is a matter of your very soul and not something to take lightly. Remember what Paul warned of...

"For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

Don't follow that broad path to destruction as so many will. Please, for your own soul, study the Word, learn the truth and share the truth. You have a wonderful opportunity before you.

God bless you both,

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

broSonnie · #2 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 02:58 PM

Of course I get classic response, very fast I might add:

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

romans 10:9-10.....the prayer accomplishes this....of course a prayer doesn't save anyone but what they believe in their hearts....we also counsel them that one must then follow the acts of obedience of confessing publicly and following in baptism......i appreciate your email believe or not i do know a thing or two about these verses.....i will also tell you this we can hold each other accountable however please do not offend me by suggesting that my livelihood has anything to do with what i am doing and saying on the show.....if i was concerned about growing the show for the world i would have never mentioned that JESUS CHRIST changed me forever and i will never stop praising HIM and including HIS teachings in everything we do........your email is classic satan......instead of supporting each other on the great commission we bicker and fight over what paul calls foolish arguments.....GOD has used this show to reach thousands and is blessing everything we are doing....we do teach everything you claim i don't understand....bottom line you think baptism is part of salvation, i believe the BIBLE teaches it as an act of obedience to confess HIM publicly.......i have studied the BIBLE and i see nothing that teaches that JESUS CHRIST blood on the cross isn't enough or the JESUS plus argument......you believe that someone can accept CHRIST in their heart, ask for forgiveness for sin...publicly confess him with their mouth and get hit by a car on the way to the water and go to hell before being baptized by water and i don't agree.......i love you and i know this i will see you in heaven......rick

one more word.....do you find it interesting that in mark 16:16 he says that believes and is baptized shall be saved and then he says he who does not believe will be damned....i wonder why he did not say he that is not baptized will be damned?.........rick

So I responded again, probably to no avail, his mind is made up and he's relying on what other men have taught him, not the Bible, as we might expect:

Quote:

Hmmm.... classic response.

So the sinner's prayer is not what saves us, but you link to a site that tells people that's what they have to do to be saved. I'm scratching my head about now. So maybe you believe all they have to do is believe it in their hearts? Jesus says there will be those who believe in their hearts they are saved, but they will not enter the kingdom of heaven, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

In reference to Mark 16:16... It's not hard to understand if you don't already have your mind made up. He didn't have to tell them not to be baptized because if you don't believe it will not matter if you are baptized or not. But regardless, how does that separate "believe" and "baptized"? Those are joined together to be saved, according to Jesus himself.

I suppose you just didn't read all the scripture I provided. If you do, and you continue to believe the way you do, you are ignoring a lot of scripture.

The challenge remains if you are up to it. Find one person under the new covenant saved by prayer. It's ironic that all of them were baptized.

I agree that the blood of Jesus is what saves us, but how do we come in contact with that blood? We are washed through baptism. Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"

Now, you say my email is classic Satan, but then you say you'll see me in heaven. What kind of talk is that. My email was classic love trying to save someone who is relying on false teachings that are not in the Bible in an attempt to be saved. It's elementary Bible teaching, nothing less, nothing more, and definitely not Satan. I would have never expected you to say something like that, but I suppose it takes all kinds.

Please, for your own soul's sake, don't turn this into something hostel or into a feud, study what I wrote fully and test it against the word. There are many questions there for you to consider. If you wanna be hard headed and ignore the Bible, so be it. I've dusted my feet off more than once in my life time, I can dust them off again.

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

broSonnie · #3 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 03:42 PM

And yet another pretty fast response.... how many times have we heard this?

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

it's classic satan to have you and i (both believers and followers of JESUS CHRIST, both believing the same bible, both baptized by water and the HOLY SPIRIT) arguing whether or not we one of us is saved or not......while we do this we have a lost world who is dying......i do believe should be baptized......JESUS said, if you love me you will obey my commandments, anyone who loves me will obey my teachings....we are to be baptized....i have been baptized anyone who loves CHRIST should be baptized.....when we get responses on our site we send them the info that includes being baptized however i don't believe the bible teaches it's essential for salvation ( your thief stuff was a stretch, i think you would have a better case to say they were talking before CHRIST died and rose for the dead) i think that might be a better argument........i understand you say we are teaching it in a way that is pleasing to you, i can go there however you are telling a person who confessed JESUS is LORD daily, has repented from my former life, confessed my sins and asked to be forgiven through the blood of JESUS CHRIST, followed by being baptized in the water, publicly professed CHRIST IS LORD OF MY LIFE and i am not saved? accountability is one thing but this sounds like judgement which any biblical scholar like yourself knows is out of line.......you are also aware of the great commission.....are you baptizing men and women in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, are you teaching the lost to obey HIS teachings are you sharing your faith with the lost or are you spending your time arguing legalist matters with fellow believers?.......rick

My reply:

Quote:

With all due respect Rick, this is not an argument by me, and I have in no way personally implied you are not saved. If any of the scripture you have read that I furnished has compelled you to doubt you are saved, then maybe you should study more and make sure you are. However, we must judge to an extent... otherwise how would we ever know who to share with and who not to share with? None the less, if the scripture is pricking your heart, that is a good thing.

You may wish to read again as to my entire point of emailing you... you just don't get it, you are being totally close minded. As I stated previously, you are referring to false teachings by linking to the site you link to. If you think that God is going to ignore this, I'm afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed when that day comes. Now, if you want to be a part of teaching someone how to be saved, I encourage you to do it the Biblical way, not man-made tradition way.

No where does the Bible teach that baptism is obedience after salvation. It's just not there. You can twist around some scripture and get there, but why not just take it for what it says... and why ignore all the scripture I have furnished you with. To get around baptism being required for salvation, you will have to call Jesus, Peter and Paul liars. You will have to explain away all those passages I previously sent to you. All you are referencing back in your replies to me is what false teachers have taught for years, hundreds of years, but it does not go back thousands of years to the days of Christ and the apostles. What you are teaching is different than what they taught. If you don't see it, then Satan has blinded you.

The Great Commission is an excellent example of how Christ commanded baptism in order to be saved.

Matthew 28:19, 20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Jesus says go and "make disciples". How did He instruct them to "make disciples"? By "baptizing them" and by "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". Those two things would make a disciple. What is a disciple? Hint: Acts 11:26

I've done about all I can do here Rick. I've planted the seed of truth at your feet. You can either decide to really investigate it like I did when I was once as hard-headed as you, or you can keep believing what you believe based on what mere men have convinced you of... it's your decision. It's your soul, are you willing to jeopardize it?

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

broSonnie · #4 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 06:16 PM

The next response from Rick:

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

again you refer to my soul....my soul is saved no question.....however you are not saying that i am not teaching one needs to be baptized you are saying i am not teaching it correctly? never have i ever told someone they should not be baptized, if one does not he or she is not being obedient....i just believe the bible teaches you and me that GOD'S grace is what saves through the blood of HIS son JESUS CHRIST not ritual........the sinners prayer saves no one however the scriptures tell us that if we do the things it calls for in our heart we are saved.....again romans 10: 9-10...that is the sinners prayer.....my life is changed and lives have been changed through the work he is doing through the gifts he gave me......no one that has ever confessed CHRIST to me has ever been told they don't need to be baptized...rick

My response:

Quote:

Obviously you are questioning it yourself as you read the scripture I provide.

I'm simply suggesting you test your soul...

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"

It's not whether you are teaching baptism Rick... you are teaching people that they must pray to be saved... look at the site you link to. Have you even read it? Do you even know what it says?

God's grace is shown in His plan of salvation... we must respond and obey to realize that grace.

So now you say baptism is a ritual? How do you come up with all this non-sense Rick?

Titus 3:5-6 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"

You see... baptism is a work of God, not of ourselves, as Paul explains in Ephesians 2:8-10. Baptism is how God saves us... "baptism does also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21)

I'm not sure how you get a prayer out of Romans 10:9-10 unless you are wrestling with the scriptures, as some are in the habit of doing and to their own destruction...

2 Peter 3:14-16 "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

But let's consider it anyway:

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

First of all, if you keep this in context with the book of Romans, Paul is not teaching us (or the Romans he is writing to) how to be saved here. He is referencing something they were struggling with. These people already knew baptism is required for salvations... read Romans chapter 6, another book you've so conveniently ignored over and over.

Secondly, confessing with the mouth is not prayer... refer to Matthew 10:32. He is referencing confessing Jesus as Lord, just as the Eunuch did.

Thirdly, we have already established that we must believe and confess, neither of us are questioning those requirements or "ritual" as you might call them. Oh yeah, if baptism is a "ritual" then so is "believing" and "confessing"... all required to be saved.

Lastly, the Greek word used here is "eis" which means "in the direction of" or "towards". Believing and confession lead us in the direction of salvation.

Now you say... "the scriptures tell us that if we do the things it calls for in our heart we are saved". Please enlighten me as to where the Bible says this. OOPS.... you can't, because it is nowhere found in the Bible. That is a man-made doctrine that some other man has convinced you of that you have planted in your mind and refuse to let go of.

Look Rick... it's fairly obvious that I'm getting nowhere with you. Your mind is made up... as my wife says, you are "untouchable". I suspect you are half reading what I've written, totally ignoring most of the scriptures I've provided, and probably getting a little coaching on how to respond to me instead of considering the scriptures. I hate to give up on someone that seems as bright as you are, but at this point, I really have no choice but to dust my feet off and move on. Maybe one day you guys will see the truth and start teaching it... otherwise, you'll figure it out when you leave this life. If you ever decide you really want to know the full truth... open you Bible and quit listening to false teachers.

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

broSonnie · #5 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 06:20 PM

I also replied the following:

Quote:

My wife is following our conversation via the forum link I gave you at the bottom of my first email to you. I though maybe you might like to see her responses to me...

Wow, I didn't think you were going to go in such detail but I guess to get the point across you had to. I wonder if they are going to read it all or just delete it? I really hope they do, for their soul's sake.
Maybe you will get a response...

Oh my! I can't believe he responded and wrote what he did. Calling you satan, now that was a low blow. I believe you are right... dust your feet off and move on...he is what we call "untouchable" and ignoring the truth. Doesn't even want to listen. But aren't you used to that kind of response? Oh well, I guess I will keep XM on during my morning drive. I have a different opinion of him now.

She was just like you Rick... believed in the same way you do now. She kept studying and studying and finally on her very own figured it out. She constantly reminds herself that all you have to do is read the Bible... it's all right there in black and white. She is also constantly asking me why are so many people so blind and ignore the scriptures the way they do?

Oh well...

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

To which he replied:

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

i never called you satan....i said satan caused believers to argue over foolish things......she also refers to my soul......you said you are not calling my salvation into question however both of you refer to my soul....dust your feet off? that scripture refers to the lost who will not hear the truth of JESUS CHRIST....again i ask are you calling me lost or not? i have never told anyone not to be baptized....i myself am baptized....talk about hard headed and won't listen who is the kettle here.....since you have the correct teachings are you sharing with those who don't believe JESUS CHRIST is the way the truth and the life and that no one comes to the father but through HIM (john 14:6) with as much fervor as those of us who do?......rick

And I replied once more (I know... I'm getting dizzy too):

Quote:

I cleared her up on the Satan part, although it clearly appears you are saying I'm working for Satan... but I now stand by your correction.

We might be referencing your soul based on conclusions drawn between your comments and what the scriptures say. In this case, it's really not us calling our soul into question, it's the scriptures that call your soul into question.

You state you were baptized, but you state it's not necessary for salvation. This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Apparently you believe your sins were washed away by believing and prayer.... and before baptism, which again is contrary to what the Bible teaches, contrary to what Jesus and the apostles taught. If you believe the way you do, then there is no other conclusion for us but to assume you were not baptized for the right reasons. You obviously were not baptized for the remission of sins. When Peter commanded those at Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, was it just for them or for all people (including us)?

Those Ephesian men in Acts chapter 19 who were baptized for the wrong reasons were not saved, although they thought they were. They had to be re-baptized for the right reason.

Don't you see that your man-made doctrine of baptism being obedience after salvation is no where taught in the Bible and that baptism for the remission of sins (which by the way means in order to cleanse you of your sins) is taught repetitiously? Why would you choose to ignore the Bible and believe in man-made doctrines?

Yes, I indeed share with people who are lost on a consistent basis. I own www.bibletruthforums.com and several other non-profit and non-advertising supported websites that help share the gospel daily. At my business, First Troy Finance in Troy, Alabama, you walk in and you will find plenty of free information to help you learn the truth, including free DVDs. We use 100% of our advertising budget to advertise the Lord and the Truth! I also spend my time trying to help the occasional person I run across that has been taught in error and may be sharing false teachings. All along some of those people actually listen and realize they haven't studied near as much as they should have and that they have mostly listened and relied on what other men have taught them instead of the scriptures. There are millions who believe in Jesus Christ who are not saved... so I don't just share with those that don't believe in Jesus.

Again... I encourage you (and I'm getting warn out dusting off my feet) to study and read more... consider the scriptures that have been presented to you. ALL of them! I think if you look at them on your own and really think about them, you may eventually see the light.

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker
Luverne, Alabama

broSonnie · #6 (**permalink**) 03-07-07, 06:24 PM

Then surprisingly I get a response from Bubba. If this ain't classic, I don't know what is:

Quote:

Bill "Bubba" Bussey wrote:

Hello,

I take it your are Church of Christ?
Always good to hear from our COC brothers and sisters.
As you know we have a slightly different take on it. But I always insist new Christians follow with Baptism as an act of public acknowledgment.

No need to debate here. I know your position well. And I assume you ours. We will just have to agree to dis-agree, and try to focus on our common belief.

Thanks you for listening.....and working for his kingdom.

When will people learn that the phrase, "agree to disagree" is an oxymoron?

I should have asked him where the Bible says baptism is an "act of public acknowledgment". I know he didn't come up with those words on his own... those are words taught by denominations, not the Bible.

Notice he got his "Thanks you for listening" in, although I know longer listen to them and haven't in some while.

Anyway... I felt obliged to reply to him as well, although I know it is one ear and out the other.

Quote:

Hello Bubba,

Yes I am a member of the church that belongs to Christ. Anyone who is saved is part of the church. I think you might have a misunderstanding about what the church really is. So are you not a member of the church?

You are making this an "us" and "them" thing. It would be nice if we could all follow Paul's warning of not being divided...

1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

But I suppose as long as there is that "us" and "them" and the "we'll just have to agree to dis-agree" attitude, I suppose Paul's warning will continue to go ignored.

Obviously your mind is made up, so I'll move on.

Thanks for the reply anyway.

Sonnie

Then Bubba replied once more... to which I saw no need to reply. It's obvious he is clueless:

Quote:

Bill "Bubba" Bussey wrote:

Thank you so much...yes it is an us thing, and yes I'm a member of "The Church at Brookhills".
I love ya sister!!! I was saved and baptized at age 10. I'm glad to be on the "great commission" with you!!!

thanks

He thinks I'm a sister, lol... Sonnie does get me in trouble sometimes, even though I clearly reference I have a wife (and yes, she is a woman ...

).

You know... if Jesus sat down in front of these guys and told them the truth, they wouldn't believe it. Think about it... Jesus has spoken via God's Word and they won't listen.

broSonnie · #7 (**permalink**) 03-08-07, 12:02 AM

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment... it is so very evident that Rick just has no clue about the truth. I learned tonight that he actually speaks at various churches. God help his soul. It must be merely for a numbers gathering thing because of his popularity because anyone that reads what he believes and knows the truth would struggle putting him in the pulpit. God help any churches that allow him to speak.

Anyway... here's another response:

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

should i change john 3:16 to read as follows......for GOD so loved the world that he sent his only son that who so ever believes in HIM and is baptized in water shall not perish but have everlasting life.....i was baptized in CHRIST blood for my salvation through the GRACE on the one and only living GOD, i then was baptized in water to publicly signify what CHRIST had done in my life, to be a new creation, to obey HIS commands and to spread the gospel....i have never been the same again....i am born again and my life clearly reflects that, the before and after are not even close....i am radically changed.....you make the comment that many believe in CHRIST and are lost and i agree with you....satan believes in JESUS but HE is unchanged by HIM.....i am totally submissive to CHRIST and have radically changed....i have done everything CHRIST asked me to do and continue to do to live with HIM in heave and i assure you beyond a shadow of doubt i will live with you in heaven, even though i disagree with a total disregard for the old testament and that salvation includes JESUS plus anything, i see nothing in your beliefs that keeps you from salvation....you might be shocked but i am on your team and i will be with you in heaven........thanks for your time let's wipe each others dust off and move on....continue the good fight.....rick

Any my lengthy reply that he thought I typed right then, but most of it I copied and pasted from previous writings:

Quote:

Why would you want to change any passage in the Bible. That's what I'm trying to get you to stop doing. John 3:16 is a great passage and often misunderstood to somehow cause people to believe that all we have to do to be saved is believe, but surely I supplied you will enough scriptural proof that you don't believe that. Did you even read the Matthew 7:21-23 passage I sent you? Look, if you aren't even reading the scriptures, then what's the purpose of our conversation here? If you read it then you would not imply that believing is all that is necessary.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So is that it... do we simply "believe He exist" and we will not perish, but have eternal life? Does believing in Christ get us "in Christ"?

We need to know because John has already wrote that "in Him" is where eternal life is. Salvation is "in Christ".

Believing alone cannot put us "in Christ" therefore we can not be saved by simply believing that Jesus exist.

The passage does not tell us that "whosoever believeth He exist should not perish"... NO, this is where "many" go wrong and follow that "broad" path to destruction. If this is all we have to do then we could simply throw our Bibles away and forget the rest of what Jesus said. How much sense would that make?

We MUST understand what "believing in him" means.

We must believe in the Son, "in Christ".

So what does believing "in Christ" mean?

Believing is not simply a mental assent, as in "I believe that Christ is Jesus and He is the Son of God" or "I believe that Christ died for my sins".

Believing "in Christ" is not only believing that He is indeed the Son of God... it is also believing in what He did for us... it is believing in ALL of what He said... it is believing in ALL of His words... it is trusting in Him for the way of salvation.

Jesus clearly said, "And if any man hear my words, and believe not... the same shall judge him in the last day."

Obviously Jesus wants us to hear His words and believe them, which is part of "believing in Him".

So we know that believing "in him" is not simply saying that we believe that He exist.

Let's consider the Greek word for "believe"...

Greek = "pisteuo" which is translated today in most Bible translations as "believe" or "believeth"...

Now let's consider the definition for the word "pisteuo" (not "believe", but "pisteuo")...

Strong's Definition:
to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit;
by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ):
- believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

"Pisteuo" means "to have faith in, commit, to trust, to be persuaded of, place confidence in, and to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith"

So to "pisteuo eis autos" or "believe in Him", per our translation of what John wrote in John 3:16, would mean that we should put our faith in Him, commit to Him, believe what He said, and that we should trust in Him to help us obtain salvation. Clearly it is more than simply saying that we believe.

This is why it is so very important that we study God's Word and learn what words mean. If we truly study we can learn that the word was not really "believe" but rather "pisteuo" and was translated by men as "believe". The word "pisteuo" really has much more meaning that simply to "believe" as what we think of it in today's society. You should understand that John, the writer of the Gospel of John, did not use the word "believe"... this was not his word, but rather our word... it was the word uninspired men decided to use to translate his word or God's word.

We should even carry the thought of our English word "believe" to a level of "trust" as well. If you believe me, what does that mean? It means you trust I am telling you the truth, right? So... if you believe in Christ or "believeth in Him", as John wrote, you would be "trusting in Him"... so clearly you should see that this is not merely a mental assent to the existence of Christ.

Many people have long thought that John 3:16 was it... just believe that Christ exist and you can be saved... NO, NO, NO! That is absolutely not what the Bible teaches. Let me give you an example so you can clearly understand what John means... Jesus said in Luke 13:3 that unless you repent you will surely perish... now do you believe Him? Do you believe in Jesus? Do you "believeth in Him" as John wrote? Now, do you understand the difference in "believing that He exist" and "believing in Him"? Again... believing in Him is believing He exist, believing in what He did, believing in what He said, believing in what he taught, and trusting in Him for the way of salvation.

Rick, you can't just yank a verse out of the Bible in an attempt to support your false teachings... it won't work my friend.

You can also be radically changed and not be saved.... remember Matthew 7:21-23... many of them did great and wonderful works for Jesus, but He never knew them.

You have continued to ignore the scriptures I have provided that clearly prove you are wrong, but that is understandable. Again, as my wife has stated... you are untouchable. It's just sad to see you risk your soul in the way you do and then falsely teach others that you can be saved in that same way. I hope you understand you will be held accountable.

In Christ,
Sonnie Parker

broSonnie · #8 (**permalink**) 03-08-07, 12:08 AM

Oh yeah... there's more for sure.

Quote:

rick burgess wrote:

i totally agree with everything you have said in this email and i have said the same thing to you in mine......are your reading them......did you get my example of satan believes in JESUS but it does not change him....do you remember that comment....i hate to tell you this but you really wasted a lot of typing time on this one....i agree 100 per cent with your email on what it means to believe.....you just believe that baptism with water ( not the holy spirit) is part of salvation and i believe that the water is just that water and it's an act of obedience.....that's it....the rest of this we are in agreement.........i have been baptized and you think i did not have the right mindset and i disagree...that's where we are, so thanks for the GREEK lesson that is awesome but believe or not i already knew that, do you think that i am just some yahoo who has never studied the scriptures? we disagree on water baptism end of subject....rick

Hmmm... he totally agrees, (but really he doesn't). He's pretty much contradicting himself. But do notice that he stated "i totally agree with everything you have said in this email".

Now notice one thing I said (this would be in my response above, in the last post):

"You have continued to ignore the scriptures I have provided that clearly prove you are wrong, but that is understandable. Again, as my wife has stated... you are untouchable. It's just sad to see you risk your soul in the way you do and then falsely teach others that you can be saved in that same way. I hope you understand you will be held accountable."

And he agrees with everything I said!!!!!!!!!

So here's my response...

Quote:

Rick, our two emails are miles apart. I'm not sure what you are reading, but I'm wondering if you even realize what you wrote. And to clarify... we differ in several ways if you've been reading at all. Now you are contradicting yourself. Two very critical and key issues are the sinner's prayer and water baptism, but there are many other differences surrounding those issues. I know that I'm agreeing with the Bible and you are agreeing with... well, uh... I'm not really sure, but I suppose with other men that have taught you all these traditions of men.

You tried to say that I am adding "water baptism" to John 3:16. This would infer that you would support believing only without anything else. I responded that believing includes more than just "I believe" by showing you that it includes believing in everything Jesus says... "believing in Him", what He said, what He did, which include water baptism for salvation. Look... Jesus says it's necessary, I simply agree with what Jesus says, you obviously don't.

Will you answer me a few questions?

You stated:

i was baptized in CHRIST blood for my salvation through the GRACE on the one and only living GOD, i then was baptized in water to publicly signify what CHRIST had done in my life

Where exactly in the Bible is this philosophy taught?

How can you ignore (or I suppose explain away) the following passages:

Acts 2:21-38
Acts 22:16
Romans 6:3-5

And you still haven't met my challenge yet... you have hem hawed around it since the first email... where is the sinner's prayer in the Bible... and show me one person saved by prayer who lived under the new covenant.

Furthermore, do you not believe that if God wanted us to pray a prayer to be saved He would have given us clear and precise instructions to do so? Do you not believe that He would have given us at least one example?

According to John 3:3-5, in order to be born again (saved) we must be born of water and of the spirit. Of course that simply means we must be baptized in order to be saved, but you ignore it, I realize that, although I'm not sure why you do, but obviously the same reason you ignore so many other passages that are so very clear water baptism is essential for salvation. Jesus is telling you Himself that it's essential, but you deny Him.

It appears now that you are suggesting that baptism with the Holy Spirit is required to be saved. I'm trying to recall where the Bible teaches that? Oh yeah... no where! It's like you just pull stuff out of the air Rick... if it sounds good it must be okay... is that your philosophy? You don't have to answer, it is evident. Holy Spirit baptism only occurred twice, once at Pentecost in the upper room and again with Cornelius and his family.... neither time was it for salvation.

I know... I'm totally wasting my time... I know this... I really do!

In Christ,
Sonnie

broSonnie · #9 (**permalink**) 03-08-07, 04:12 PM

The saga continues...

This time I respond a little different...

See my responses:

rick wrote:

i have been very clear what it means to believe therefore john 3:16 stands alone...one must understand what the bible means by "believing" you and i agree....

I'm not sure how you understand the we agree. I believe that believing in Him includes all that He did and said... you clearly don't. You do not agree that baptism is necessary for salvation, therefore you cannot possibly agree with Him. He said on three occasions it is necessary, but you are ignoring it. We do not agree, that is obvious.

rick wrote:

the sinners prayer (this is the 3rd time i have said this) simple tells someone what they need to do with their heart (romans 10:9-10) third time i have given you these verses...you have never responded to this.......

Quite the contrary... I knew you have not been reading all of what I'm writing... understandable though. You only read part of the Bible... you pick and choose the scriptures you need out of context to support your false doctrines. It's reasonable to understand you'd only read a part of what I have written. But to clear it up... here is what I wrote if you want to verify by scrolling down the page....

I'm not sure how you get a prayer out of Romans 10:9-10 unless you are wrestling with the scriptures, as some are in the habit of doing and to their own destruction...

2 Peter 3:14-16 "Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

But let's consider it anyway:

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

First of all, if you keep this in context with the book of Romans, Paul is not teaching us (or the Romans he is writing to) how to be saved here. He is referencing something they were struggling with. These people already knew baptism is required for salvations... read Romans chapter 6, another book you've so conveniently ignored over and over.

Secondly, confessing with the mouth is not prayer... refer to Matthew 10:32. He is referencing confessing Jesus as Lord, just as the Eunuch did.

Thirdly, we have already established that we must believe and confess, neither of us are questioning those requirements or "ritual" as you might call them. Oh yeah, if baptism is a "ritual" then so is "believing" and "confessing"... all required to be saved.

Lastly, the Greek word used here is "eis" which means "in the direction of" or "towards". Believing and confession lead us in the direction of salvation.

Now you say... "the scriptures tell us that if we do the things it calls for in our heart we are saved". Please enlighten me as to where the Bible says this. OOPS.... you can't, because it is nowhere found in the Bible. That is a man-made doctrine that some other man has convinced you of that you have planted in your mind and refuse to let go of.

So you still have not shown me where the sinner's prayer is. It is overwhelming clear that there is no prayer in Romans 10:9,10.

Now... you still haven't met my challenge of showing me just one person in the Bible who was saved by prayer who is under the great commission and new covenant.

You still have not answered my questions... ARE YOU SCARED RICK???? Scared you will learn the truth?

You stated:

i was baptized in CHRIST blood for my salvation through the GRACE on the one and only living GOD, i then was baptized in water to publicly signify what CHRIST had done in my life

Where exactly in the Bible is this philosophy taught?

How can you ignore (or I suppose explain away) the following passages:

Acts 2:21-38
Acts 22:16
Romans 6:3-5

Furthermore, do you not believe that if God wanted us to pray a prayer to be saved He would have given us clear and precise instructions to do so? Do you not believe that He would have given us at least one example?

Quit running from the truth and answer the questions Rick!

rick wrote:

we both agree on what it means to believe but not water baptism being required for salvation ( you answer on the thief is a stretch)....

I'm not sure how much clearer it can be made about the thief on the cross Rick... he lived before the great commission and before the new covenant, it would be awfully hard for him to obey either. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Our fourth and fifth graders understand it perfectly fine.

rick wrote:

look with me are the following people......billy grahm, josh mcdowell, max lucado (who used to agree with you, no longer does), lee stroble etc....i am in pretty good company...these guys have done incredible things for the kingdom and have studied the scriptures........i am sure you will say they are wrong and you are right but you have to admit being right compared to me is one thing but billy grahm and max lucado?

Look with me at the following people Rick... Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter... and about 10 others who were actually inspired by God. I'd say I'm in pretty good company. I trust in God Rick... not man! If you want to accompany a group of men, pick the inspired group. You can be added to this group anytime you choose to do so, it's called the church... simply do what God has commanded of you and you will be on our side and part of that group.

There is a message for those men though...

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Now... on to this baptism hang up you have with not agreeing with what the Bible says. Let's examine the scriptures and see what they say...

Mark 16:16 "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who doesn't believe will be condemned." (ISV)

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (KJV)

Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (NASB)

Jesus said, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved".

I am not sure how much clearer this could be. Jesus said it Himself.

We must "BELIEVE" and be "BAPTIZED" in order to be saved.

I have no reason to doubt anything Jesus said and I hope no one else would either because clearly Jesus also said "And if any man hear my words, and believe not... the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)

Not only do we have to believe "in Christ"... we must also be "in Christ" to be saved.

If we "believe" what Jesus says, then we must believe that what He says in Mark 16:16 is true. The ones who will be saved are the ones who "believe" and are "baptized".

We "believe" in Christ and we are "baptized" into Christ, then we are "in Christ".

Jesus also commanded the apostles to teach all that He taught and to baptize...

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Jesus tells us in the above passage how disciples are made... "baptizing them" and "teaching them". These two actions will make a disciple, which is a Christian (Acts 11:26).

Doing the will of God includes believing and being baptized. If we do not believe, we "shall be damned."

Obviously if we do not believe, we will not care to be baptized either... this would reason without even needing to be said. Think about it... did Jesus need to say "but he that believeth not and is baptized not will be damned"? No, of course not! Jesus knows that if you do not believe then you obviously are not going to be baptized. No one is claiming that baptism alone saves us and I cannot imagine anyone wanting to be baptized who does not believe... how ridiculous would that be. It is an ignorant argument to claim that just because Jesus only said that he who does not believe will be damned means as long as we believe we do not have to be baptized. That is not how the passage reads.

When Peter preached the first gospel message after the Great Commission on the day of Pentecost he commanded the people to "repent" and be "baptized" for the forgiveness of sins...

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul's conversion proves to us "WHEN" our sins are washed away...

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

If baptism is not important, as some claim, then when are our sins washed away? If it is at some other point in time such as believing, then why were Paul's sins not washed away when he first believed, or when he repented, or when he confessed, or even when he was praying before he was instructed to be baptized (Acts 9)? The Bible clearly teaches us that Paul's sins were not washed away (forgiven) until he was baptized. The full story is in Acts chapter 9 and chapter 22.

Paul later explains that we are "baptized" so that we can "walk in newness of life"...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Remember "WHAT" saves us... the "blood of Christ"... now we learn how we come in contact with His blood... we are "buried with Him by baptism into death".

Paul also wrote that we who have been "baptized into Christ" have "put on Christ"...

Galatians 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Are you one of the "For as many as have been baptized"? If you are not then you have not "put on Christ".

Is there someway to "put on Christ" other than through baptism? If there is, God forgot to inspire someone to write it in the Bible.

Paul wrote again that we are "buried with Christ in baptism" and "raised" with Christ through baptism...

Colossians 2:12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Peter wrote that "baptism does also now save us"...

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Jesus said unless we are "born of water and of the Spirit" we cannot enter the kingdom...

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "

Clearly the evidence is overwhelming that we must be "baptized" to complete our salvation.

So why do so many people (including many preachers) say that baptism is not that important, and/or that baptism is simply obedience after we are already saved, and/or that baptism is an outward expression of an inward change? You know, I have searched the Bible for the answer to these questions, I have asked a many a person (including many preachers, including you Rick), I have yet to be explained or find the answer. I will not ever find it in the Bible, neither will you, neither will any preacher, because it is simply not there. The concept is not even mentioned in the Bible, there is simply no scriptural proof for these human philosophical opinions and man-made doctrines. The only logical answer I can come up with is that many people believe this because Jesus said they would... they are among the "many" and Jesus said many will follow the "broad" path to destruction, while "few" find eternal life.

I'm not sure how much clearer the Bible can be Rick. You can continue to ignore it if you want... it will be to your own destruction.

Look... I understand you have an image to uphold. If you start preaching, teaching and sharing the truth, your popularity is going to plummet. I know it would be tough on you... it's tough on all of us who actually preach and teach the truth. We are by far in the minority, but that's where the saved are... in the minority... not with what wins the public over, not with what tickles your ears. If you are gonna preach and teach the truth... you talk about about radical changes in your life.... you haven't even begun to understand what radical is until you start preaching and teaching the truth. Want to know what it's really like to be persecuted... start preaching and teaching the truth... you will quickly find out.

I hope you change Rick... but I don't you will.... you've just got too many worldly attachments. I'll still pray for you though.

In Christ,
Sonnie

broSonnie · #10 (**permalink**) 03-08-07, 04:18 PM

Then Scott Dawson contacts me.... I think he's the guy that actually owns the site that the rickandbubba.com site links to via their "FAITH" link...

Quote:

Scott Dawson wrote:
>
> Sonnie:
>
>
>
> I reviewed your email that was sent to Rick and Bubba about the Faith link. It is with mixed emotions that I take the time to respond. Your email was a little longer than the normal ones I receive and I applaud your knowledge of Scripture. However, I think in order for this to be productive let’s start with what we agree with before we use a platform that shows the differences:
>
>
>
> First, we do agree that mankind is lost. Since the Garden of Eden, man has been separated from God. I think we would also agree that our society is no longer “post-modern” but actually “pre-Christian.” This simply means that the Christian values have been so far removed that it is possible for someone to grow up and never hear the Gospel…not in Africa, but Alabama.
>
>
>
> Second, we also agree that Jesus died for my sin and yours. IT is not enough to simply believe that Jesus died on the cross for sin…that makes it to ambiguous. (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21) It is life-changing when you discover that Jesus died on the cross for my sin…my pride, lust, greed, and all other sin is what drove Christ to the cross. What an incredible demonstration of live for Christ to take on my sin upon Himself when He went to the Cross. WOW! That is good news on a day like this.
>
>
>
> Third, we agree that since we are lost, there is no chance of us providing our own salvation. (Ephesians 2; Hebrews 10) Based on what God’s Word says, We have offended God and therefore separated eternally from Him…never to have the right to be back in His presence, not even on our best day. There is no way we could provide for ourselves salvation. That leads me to another doctrine we would agree with.
>
>
>
> Fourth, we would agree that Jesus is the way of salvation. John 14:6 kind of sums this up for all of us. It is further explained in Ephesians 2 that it is the gift of God, lest anyone could boast. It is clear that God will share His love, mercy, and grace, but not His glory. So if we cannot do anything to achieve salvation, it is the Gift of God, then all we can do is receive His gift by faith. Now, I know this is where you think I am going to start my vendetta on baptism. Please do not think that. I believe that people who separate over the necessity of baptism in salvation have not taken the time to pray for each other and try to see someone’s relationship with Christ instead of their view of baptism (Sonnie – this is from both sides)
>
>
>
> Baptism is very important and I would not dampen your passion on obedience. Obedience, Yes. Salvation, No. Not because Baptism is not important, but to add anything to what Jesus did would be detrimental to our faith. I know we will probably agree to disagree…my only hope is that you, Rick and I will stay fervent to Christ. Like I stated earlier, we all know that society is lost and are searching…our job is to tune them into Jesus.
>
>
>
> Stay in it and stay passionate about Jesus. I pray that many souls are coming to know Christ in Luverne through your ministry. We can continue to discuss this matter…but let’s agree together that we will not argue. Blessings!
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>

So I just let it rip... no need to hold back the truth... preach it boldly!

Quote:

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your response. The one hang up I have with simply agreeing to disagree is that it's not what God wants from us. Instead, he wants us all to speak the same things and be in the same judgment. To simply accept that we have different doctrines and beliefs, and go on our separate ways would be disobedience to God. Both doctrines cannot be right, especially if they are opposite of each other. One is from God, the other is from man. Paul warned us about dividing on a couple of different occasions and more particularly he warned of agreeing to disagree...

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now, if you can somehow twist that passage around to believe it's okay for us to agree to disagree and that we should simply accept that we are not going to be of like mind, then we'll probably never get anywhere.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

I agree fully that we do not provide our own salvation. God developed His plan long before we came along. I totally agree that we cannot do works of our own merit to get to heaven. However, the Bible clearly teaches we must do works to get to heaven. These works are not of ourselves that we can boast about them (Ephesians 2:8-10), they are of God. Believing is a work... it is a work of God...

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The same as baptism is a work... it is a work of God...

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I don't know of a well known Biblical scholar that has ever disagreed that "washing of regeneration" is "water baptism". All commentators of reputation refer this to water baptism, such as Meyer, Olshausen, Lange, Plumptree, Schaff, Canon Cook, Wesley, etc. Notice it is not of our own righteousness, but by God's mercy... His grace!

We must hear, we must believe, we must repent, we must confess, we must be baptized, and we must remain faithful unto death so that we can receive that crown. These are things we must do! We don't do them so we can boast... we do them because God has commanded us to do them. If we obey, Jesus is our source of eternal salvation, but we must obey and the Hebrew writer makes it clear that it is for salvation...

Heb 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

I think back to a great example of how we must do what God tells us to do to be saved and how works have played a huge role in saving people historically. That example was written for our instruction so that we could learn from it...

1Co 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

That example is the one of Noah and the ark. God instructed Noah to build that ark, out of a specific wood and of a specific size. These were explicit instructions on what Noah had to do to be saved. Noah had to do a lot of work, but it was a work of God, not a work that Noah could boast about. Had Noah not done what God commanded him to do, he would not have been saved.

We are no different from Noah. God has told us through inspired men what we must do to be saved. Jesus spoke and by the account of three inspired men He gave a great command that baptism should be a part of salvation. The first account is that of Matthew...

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Jesus explained that there are two things with will make a disciple. A disciple being a Ch