I am beginning to understand how you base your belief on this subject. You have presented a very solid case for the church.

The dictionary definition of repentance "to feel or express regret".

1 Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us
from all unrighteousness.

My belief is that the Holy Ghost will not enter a temple that is unclean. Even though John was speaking to the church this verse applies to all men. We confess our sins,
he forgives our sins. Then baptism washes away those sins and the temple is clean.
Then we find ourselves in the state of the below listed verse.

Mt 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Mt 12:44
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Then we invite the Holy Ghost into our lives before the unclean spirits can invade again

I think this is the plan that Peter showed us in Acts 2:38

I pray this is clear and will explain further with many more examples and scriptures if you want me to.

I suppose that on this subject we must agree to disagree. The necessary steps to salvation we agree on, its just the order in which we take them that we disagree on.

Brother Steven I do fell deep remorse that you quoted a scripture accusing me of grieving the Holy Spirit. I have not accused you of anything. I have asked questions and presented another view to study.

We have had a good discourse, thank you and God Bless

I look forward to your response.

Brother:

The plan of salvation is in three parts-Repentance-baptism-receiving the spirit. These three thing represents Death-burial-resurrection. Acts 2:38

Ac 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (The three steps listed here).

It would seem that in our discussions that baptism is your way to salvation and that is basically what is needed. Peter declares that it is one of the operations of the plan.

You have linked death and burial to both taking place at baptism but they are 2 parts of the plan.
Death mean remorse for you sins-Repentance. After death burial-Baptism. Arise out of the water-resurrection.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Here Paul declares that by baptism we are buried like he was because we are dead to sin
(repentance). Arising from the watery grave we are in the likeness of his resurrection.

In the salvation of people in the bible, something always is listed before baptism. Examples follow:

Mr 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Believing comes before baptism

Ac 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
Repent come before baptism

Ac 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord
Repent and be converted baptism not mentioned

Ac 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women
Believed and then they were baptized. I don’t know how Phillip knew the believed. The bible declares they believed

Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Ac 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him
A confession of belief before baptism

Ac 9:17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hathsent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ac 9:18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Filled with the Holy Ghost before he was baptized

Ac 10:44
¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word

Ac 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days
Filled with the Holy Ghost before Baptism.

Brother: the last two examples should show that forgiveness of sin and cleansing the body for the temple of the Holy Ghost can come before Baptism

Also examples in Acts 16:14 and 18:8-9

In every incident of salvation mentioned some action takes place before baptism

God Bless

You have misapplied these verses without consideration of all that is said about this event in scripture.

Acts 11:14-15

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
KJV

In the conversion of Cornelius, the Holy Spirit fell on them as Peter began to speak. Peter hadn't said anything for Cornelius to believe. You would place the forgiveness of Cornelius sins before belief.


Secondly,

You are applying 21st century understanding to a first century word. There was far more meaning to the Greek word for "believe" in the first century than just a simple mental assent.

Let me give you an example:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Greek word for "believeth" is "pisteuo"

This is also the same word used for "believeth" in Ephesians 1:13. The verb form of this word means "to entrust, commit to". We see this word used like this in Luke 16:11, "If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?" Also we see this word used similarly in 1 Timothy 1:11, "According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." In John 2:24 we see the the word "pisteuo" translated directly to "commit", "But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"

So we see from a study of the original language there is more to the meaning of this word than a basic mental assent. This word carries the meaning of trust in someone to the degree of committing oneself to them by actions.

When we say we believe in Jesus Christ, we also have to believe everything He said and taught and be willing to commit to that. We cannot believe in Him as a person but not believe His commandments. If we fail to commit, we fail to believe.

Jesus said:
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No problem here. We all believe this.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus says that unless we repent, we will all perish spiritually. Do we believe this. If we fail to repent, then we failed to believe.

Jesus said: Matthew 10:32-22
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Those who would not confess Jesus did not believe what He said and are guilty of unbelief.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Those who believe in Jesus and are baptized shall be saved. those who fail to be baptized did not believe in Jesus to the extent that they would commit to His command to be baptized.

Do you believe in Jesus? If you do, then you have to believe it all. Jesus said we have to do certain things in order to be saved. Do you believe Him? We cannot cry "Lord Lord We Believe" and expect to be saved. In Jesus' own words:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Now...... do you believe Him?

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Hi Terry,
This is not about "eating" but instead the point where a person calls upon God to save them. As Robert has strongly stated, the teaching of the Eucharist is not in the bible, yet I can see how the misunderstanding began that has lead to the soul damning false teaching.

When Jesus compared Himself to food, He compared Himself to manna. Those that ate manna died, even though it was a miracle. Those that embrace Jesus and His Word (eat it), since He is the Word (John 1:1), we become one with Him, resulting in eternal life verses die like the Jews did who ate manna.

John 6:48-50
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

We see Jesus referring to our love for God and His Words as hunger and thirst and Jesus is the only way to fulfill that hunger.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.

Acts 22:15-17
15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Notice this does not say, whoever eats the body and drinks the blood of the Lord in an unworthy manner, but instead it shows that it is symbolic. The bread is bread and the fruit of the vine is the fruit of the vine, but the "manner" and attitude of the person can be respectful to the actual body and sacrifice of Christ. This is symbolic, not actual blood and flesh transformation going on.

1 Corinthians 11:27
Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

So, if the majority of people in the world are athiests does that mean we should all be athiests????

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV

I’m with the opinion that many of our religious friends just really don’t understand what it means to “call on the name of the Lord.” For example, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved” (Acts 2:21). This verse and (Romans 10:13) say essentially the same thing and are most often quoted in their misunderstanding. Joel’s prophecy of Pentecost in Acts and the establishment of the church marked the beginning of salvation for all mankind through the gospel (Luke 3:6, Rom. 5:18, 10:13, 1 Tim. 2:4, Tit. 2:11-12). From the time man fell to sin in the Garden of Eden until the resurrection of Christ on the third day, Satan held men in captivity to sin. Jesus came to preach “deliverance to the captives” (Luke 4:18). The truth makes men free from the bondage of sin (John 8:32, Heb.2:15). Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life…” (John 14:6).
As we continue to read chapter 2 of Acts Peter gives an example of what to “call on the name of the Lord” means…it includes repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38). And, as we read further in the book of Acts Paul was commanded, “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sin, CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD” (Acts 22:16). Paul called on the name of the Lord when he was baptized. In fact, all the conversions in the book of Acts illustrate to us what is involved in “calling on the name of the Lord.”

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Great post brother!

Exodus 23:2

2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
KJV

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Thanks brother David. I had posted the first part of that scripture, but it was one that was removed when Terry's posts were moved. It was in response to the statement that the Catholics were such a large 'church'.

This one that you quoted was left.....

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV

Hi Marian,

It probably got caught up in the cleaning. Speaking as an Admin on other forums as well, it is sometimes the case that when the forum is cleaned good stuff gets inadvertantly swept away too. It is unfortunate but happens occasionally. I have made a mess of things many times in my life on forums and always regret it when it happens. I am quite sure it was not an intentional deletion.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

I agree. It was not intentional. I have never been involved with being an Administrator, but I am sure it is a very tough job. I think the one that was missed is called an 'orphaned' post ???

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV

Speaking of following the majority... Jesus stated that the majority would follow the broad path to destruction and only a "few" would "find" eternal life (Matthew 7:13-14)... then he gave just one of the reasons why in the very next verse (v.15).

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Romans 10:9-10 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So confession by month is apart of salvation, we see this as "apart" of baptism.

Acts 8:36-38 eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

John 9:31 31 "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.

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Your Brother in Christ Will

No doubt we accept the truth of Rom. 10:13. It seems helpful to join this passage with Acts 22:16 to determine what the Bible teaches about what and when "calling on the name of the Lord" is. In terms of sequence it occurs after baptism; this is biblical, and perfectly harmonizes with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Col. 2:12, Gal. 3:27, 1 Pet. 3:21, Titus 3:4-5. When we consider the terms of pardon, we realize that they are linked by synecdoche (the part for the whole or the whole for the part).
The thief on the cross, and those events happened before the pentecost sermon, and Acts 2:38 demonstrates what those penitent folks were told what they must do. Acts 2:47 teaches that these were "added" to the church.

Correct. To turn to the Lord and fall before Him in humility to do whatever He deems of me is to call upon Him. They called upon God saying "what must we do" in Acts 2 and they were given an answer, "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins". This is a basic carbon copy answer to the statement told to Paul when Jesus told him he would learn what he "must do" also.

Regarding the thief on the cross, many use this but sadly they are misunderstand that at that moment, the old law was in place and at the time the old law was active and Jesus walked the earth, He had the power and authority to forgive sins, being God.

Matthew 9:1-7
1 So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house.

correct me if I'm wrong here but why do they use scripture directed to "saved People" as a way to be saved? isn't the gospel what we preach to non-believers? isnt the rest of the NT for Christians only? because it only applys to Christians (saved people)?

my reason for thinking this is Mark 16:15 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

so if I'm correct if the gospel is the only thing we preach to the dead in sin, then why do they quote scripture directed to Christians?

what does the gospel say about being saved?

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

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Your Brother in Christ Will