Hi Everyone;
I'm new to this forum and live in Alberta, Canada. I've been around Christians most of my life, went to a Christian School when I was a kid. I work at a Christian University and go to a Wild Cherry flavored kind of Christian Church. One thing that God has shown me is the more you think you know (about Him, the Bible the Christian walk, other Christians...) the less you know.
So, I'm here to learn, and come into perhaps some new and some deeper truth.

Welcome to the site!

What do you mean by "wild cherry flavored"?

Welcome to the forum, Robbie

I was going to ask this very question.

May we all learn God's truth!

In Christian Love ...

__________________
The LORD is my shepherd (Psalms 23:1a)

I know him well and his church is very unstructured in the way it does its services as their services dont have an end time it finishes when ever they are done. They let the holy spirit move freely and dancing and shouting out for joy is common place, a Few Sundays ago they all ended up outside shouting and waving at cars and blessing people as they drove by on the main road that goes by.

So you are from the same area?

Yes, He is actually my work supervisor and friend we go to different churches though.

Someone once said to me of our church, "you guys are..well, wild cherry flavored" and it stuck with me. Our services are unstructured, there are no hymns posted at the front although we occasionally sing them. Worship can last from 1-2 hours long with Holy hushes occuring sometimes. There are a plethara of musical instruments similar to Psalm 150, as well as flags and banners. Dance is very non-litergical and not rehearsed in advance.Sermons are not prepared in advance. Sometimes 2-3 people will preach or teach. What our church leadership is looking for is a leading of the Holy Spirit, such as we see in Jesus Christs life. For example in John7:8 Jesus says to his brothers,"You go up to the feast; I am not going up to the feast; My time is not yet fulfilled". Then very quickly in John 7:10 Jesus goes up to the feast. Why? Because His time "was come" and He was lead there by the Holy Spirit.

Robbie, does your group try to do miracles?

Howdy and welcome to BTF... hope we can help you in your deeper learning...

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Thanx for the welcome broSonnie.
There are some healings and miracles, however we don't "try" to do them but trust in God to perform them through us. Just as Jesus could do nothing without the Holy Spirit, so I can do absolutely nothing without Him either. Personally, I ask my Father in heaven if He desires at this time to heal each individual, and what I should say or do before hand. I have seen many healings. Most of the healings are on outreaches I do with other churches in our area. Funny thing is, when I ask God if it's okay to release His healing virtue and give it away, He virtually always says yes!
God Bless

I have actually never heard God speak to me, but I am curious as to what His voice sounds like. Is it a whisper in the ear... a deep voice... or just a sense that He is speaking to you?

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

One of my favorite verses is 1 Jn 2:27 which says, "But the anointing which you recieved from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He taught you abide in Him". Furthermore Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice. So, the Holy Spirit has taught me to hear God's voice as I stay in relationship to Him (abiding). It is a Spirit to spirit communication that is heard as an unction, in the depth of your spirit. How does one explain and convey the stuff of God, of the Kingdom to the intelect. What does God's voice sound like? It is difficult to say. It does say in scripture, like thunder, like the roar of many waterfalls, in a whisper often. I hear Him sometimes in imagery, in a vast array of ways. His voice is different, kind, sometimes severe, always loving, and always lining up with scripture.
I have also tasted God. In Psalm 34:8 the writer says, "taste and see that the Lord is good". What of that?

I will offer Brother Coffman's words on this verse for your consideration. I have found them to be in accordance with the word of God...

Verse 27
And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

The anointing which ye received of him abideth in you ...
Although this is speaking of the Holy Spirit (see under 2:20), it is clear from the last clause where the neuter pronoun and past tense are used that he is referring to the written records of the gospel. It was that which they had been taught; and it was that which was abiding in them, there being no difference whatever in the word of God dwelling in Christians and the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. See full discussion of this in my Commentary on Galatians, pp. 97-99. Moreover, it was that original gospel which was alone sufficient for all their needs, enabling John to say, "Ye need not that any one teach you." The holy gospel has already given (note the past tense) all of the teaching that Christians will ever need.

That it is that gospel (we now call it the New Testament) of which John taught in this verse is proved by a careful reading of it:

That gospel is no lie.

It is the truth.

It taught you.

As a consequence of its teachings, you abide in him.

From this, it is absolutely certain, as Roberts stated it, that, "It is obvious that John does not mean that each individual has his own channel of communications by means of the Holy Spirit." F60 Furthermore, John did not teach that Christians had no need of further study. The whole passage must be understood as a plea for the all-sufficiency of the gospel as the complete and effective refutation of heresies. "The only safeguard against lies is to have abiding in us both the Word that we heard from the beginning and the anointing that we received from him." F61


Verse 28
And now, my little children, abide in him; that, if he shall be manifested, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Abide in him ...
See under 1 John 2:24. This admonition is actually the whole point of the letter.

If he shall be manifested ...
This shows that John was by no means certain that such a period as "a last hour" which he had already positively identified as coming soon, would also include the coming of Christ; but there is a suggestion in this that he might have thought it very possible. Note, however, that he made no assertion regarding the second coming, except this, that if it did turn out that the Lord wag manifested in the events John knew were so shortly coming to pass, the Christians should strive to be ready for the Lord.

Abide in him that ... we may have boldness ...
Such boldness will result from the identification of Christians with their Lord. Those who are "in him" and abide "in him" until his coming, or until death, will indeed be amply supplied with boldness in his presence.

It will be observed that John used a number of expressions having a great similarity:

We are in him (God) (1 John 2:5).

A new commandment is true in him and in you (1 John 2:8).

He that loveth ... abideth in the light (1 John 2:9).

The word of God abideth in you (1 John 2:17).

Let that (the word of the gospel) abide in you (1 John 2:24).

... Ye also shall abide in the Son (1 John 2:24).

... and (ye shall abide) in the Father also (1 John 2:24).

The anointing ... abideth in you (1 John 2:27).

Ye abide in him (1 John 2:27).

My little children, abide in him (1 John 2:28).

In all of these passages and a dozen others like them in John's letters the meaning is identical. Could there be any conceivable difference between one who was abiding "in the light" and another who was abiding "in the word of God," or "in God," or "in Christ," or "in the Holy Spirit?" Conversely, could there be any distinction between persons "walking in the truth" (as in 3 John 1:3) and those in whom the "word of God abideth"? Again, reference is made to a more lengthy study of this phenomenon in my Commentary on Galatians, pp. 97-99. In full consonance with the unity of thought in all such passages is the over-all consideration that every single one of them means, in the last analysis, believing and obeying the commandments of God, a fact inherent in the very next verse where John spoke of "doing righteousness" as evidence of one's having been born again.

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Very interesting Don... excellent information.

Brother Bill Clayton had this to say in a lecture he did on the passage mentioned...

DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO HAVE AN "ANOINTING" OF REVELATION THAT TEACHES THEM GOD'S WILL? (1 John 2:20,27)

The false doctrine to be answered and refuted here relates directly to the so-called direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon men's minds today whereby He is said to teach/illuminate/enlighten the minds of men concerning the will of God. Stated in another manner, this is a bold denial of the power of the gospel (the Word) to save, to convert the soul, and to thoroughly furnish one unto every good work (cf. Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-2; 2 Tim. 3:17).

It is obvious that various religious groups, in one manner or another, try to justify many of their varied beliefs and/or practices by claims of God's anointing (operating upon their minds directly). One claims a revelation (anointing) of one thing while his religious neighbor claims a different revelation (anointing) which contradicts and may be diametrically opposed to the neighbor's doctrine. Thus, the claims for such anointings become the religious authority for many as the truth of the Scripture is forgotten.

It is most interesting to note at the time this is being written the headline-making news concerning the various TV evangelists and their questionable behavior, including Mr. Jimmy Swaggart; Tammy and Jim Bakker; Mr. Oral Roberts; Mr. Jerry Falwell, and others. The many antagonistic and conflicting statements from these men are producing an infamous "Holy War"; and yet, all of these men claim God provides an anointing whereby He is said to teach them.

In the verses under study, John wrote: "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. ... But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye shall abide in him" (1 John 2:20,27). These two verses appear in the setting of warnings about and safeguards against heresies. In the context John reminded those to whom he wrote to hold fast to the things they knew. There were false teachers all about -- "antichrists" (1 John 2:18,22). These brethren did not have all knowledge, else there would have been no need for these warnings. False teachers were so prominent that in 1 John 4:1, the inspired instructions were, "...believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God..."

There was a great need to identify and expose the false teachers, in this case those denying the Father and the Son and His duality (Divinity and humanity). However, it is important to note that these brethren were unable to pick up the telephone and dial some "800" number and thereby place an order for a Bible. Neither could they stop at the local book store and purchase a copy. Therefore, to try the spirits, to proclaim the resurrection, to exhort, and to convince the gainsayers required knowledge via Divine revelation (an "anointing"). John identified this knowledge as an "unction" (KJV, 1 John 2:20) and "the anointing" (1 John 2:27) (the same Greek word in the Greek text) from "the Holy One." "The word `anointing' is translated from the Greek [@chrisma], a term originally signifying an oil or ointment rubbed on the skin, and later, the anointing itself."

There are accounts in the Old Testament of the anointing of prophets, priests and kings (Exo. 29:7; 1 Sam. 10:1; Isa. 61:1). In the New Testament, Christ is our High Priest. Concerning His priesthood we read in Heb. 6:20, "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedek." He is also our king: "Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Furthermore, we observe where Jesus is identified as "... thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed ..." (Acts 4:27).

Certainly, then, the anointing spoken of in 1 John 2:20,27, had reference to the Holy Spirit. The various gifts of the Spirit (supernatural endowments) were identified as "spiritual gifts" (Rom. 1:11). These gifts were identified by the apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 12:4-11. Some questions are in order: "How did one come to possess these supernatural endowments?" and, "Is this same anointing applicable and available to children of God today?" Allowing the Holy Scriptures to answer, we observe in the account of Philiip's going from Judea into Samaria, where he made many converts. Note Luke's account:

"Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed .... But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done" (Acts 8:5-7,12-13).

The baptized believers of Samaria apparently desired to receive the Holy Ghost (Acts 8:14-16). Although Philip possessed supernatural powers (Acts 6:6) and thus could perform miracles, he, however, could not give or transmit or pass on these powers. It was by the laying on of the apostles' hands that the Holy Ghost was transmitted to others (Acts 8:18). Had Philip been able to accomplish the transmittal of these supernatural powers there would have been no need for the presence of the apostles Peter and John (Acts 8:14-15) on this occasion. From this evidence alone one must conclude that the transmittal of supernatural powers was possible only by the physical presence of an apostle and the laying on of an apostle's hands. Furthermore, this evidence forces the conclusion that when the last apostle died it was and is impossible for anyone to receive an anointing (to receive spiritual gifts).

Two of these gifts are identified as "... the discerning of spirits ..." and "... the word of knowledge ..." (1 Cor. 12:8,10). Evidently some of those to whom John wrote possessed either one or both of these same gifts of the Spirit -- a specific anointing to fill a specific need. The power to perform and/or display miraculous gifts had a specific purpose, that is, to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:3). Also, we know from Paul's instructions that these gifts were only temporary. Concerning the temporary nature of supernatural gifts Paul wrote: "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (1 Cor. 13:8-10).

Certainly supernatural gifts would end when "that which is perfect" became a reality. Special supernatural knowledge and the supernatural ability to discern spirits were necessary to identify and to know false teachers. These abilities were so very important in John's epistle concerning the Gnostic heresy. With regard to the cessation of spiritual gifts, consider the words of brother Gary Workman in his very scholarly explanation of "when that which is perfect is come":

"What is contemplated here as becoming complete? Paul only gave us the article (`the') with an adjective (`perfect'), but left the noun which they modify unstated .... The answer is to be found in 1 Cor. 13:9, since 1 Cor. 13:9 and 1 Cor. 13:10 go together as one sentence. They present a contrast between something that is incomplete or "in part" ([@ek] [@merous]) now, but will be complete ([@teleion]) later. The identification of the "perfect" is stated precisely in the words "we know in part, and we prophecy in part" (1 Cor. 13:9). Paul's subject was the receiving and dispensing of divine knowledge -- the proclamation of the New Testament faith by inspiration!"

"In 1 Cor. 13:9 the verbs "know" and "prophesy" are both modified by the adverbial expression [@ek] [@merous] ("in part".). But in 1 Cor. 13:10 those verbs and their modifiers are brought together and replaced by the single substantive expression to [@ek] [@merous] ("that which is in part"). Whatever is partial in 1 Cor. 13:9 is "that" which is partial in 1 Cor. 13:10. "Prophecy" and "knowledge" (1 Cor. 13:2 and 1 Cor. 13:8) as feminine nouns need not correspond to the neuter expressions of 1 Cor. 13:10 because 1 Cor. 13:9 has changed them to verbs! ... And since [@to] [@teleion] ("perfect") is the counterpart to [@to] [@ek] [@merous] ("that which is in part"), it is absolutely clear that the "perfect" also refers to those same verbs -- describing the completion of inspired preaching and the consequent cessation of the spiritual gifts which enabled and confirmed that preaching. Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them into "all the truth" (John 16:13). But at the time of Paul's letter the truth had not been fully received and proclaimed. However, the time was not far away -- within the lifetime of those apostles -- that revelation would draw to a close. Finally, "that which is perfect" had come when the apostle John laid down his pen and finished `the words of the prophecy'" (Rev. 22:18-21).

Therefore, from the necessity that an apostle lay on his hands to accomplish the transmittal of supernatural powers (anointing) and from their temporary nature, I must conclude that men do not continue to have an anointing to teach men the will of God today!


I understand this is a lot to absorb at one time, but it is very good information for study.

Brother Goebel Music had this to say about the passage in another lecture...

WHAT IS THE "ANOINTING"? AND IF THEY NEEDED NO TEACHING, WHY DID JOHN WRITE THIS LETTER TO TEACH THEM? (1 John 2:27)

Our Scripture text here says:

"And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him" (1 John 2:27).

Although 1 John 2:20 was not listed in the assignment, it, too, uses the word "anointing," and says, "And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all things." These are the only two verses that I know of in the New Testament where the word is used and it is used three times.

The word "anointing" is from the Greek word [@chrisma] (in KJV, "unction" in 1 John 2:20). This word is confined to a sacred meaning. Christ is called "the Anointed of God" (Luke 4:18; Acts 4:27; 10:38; Heb. 1:9). In fact, the word [@Christos] is rendered, in Acts 4:26, "Anointed." It is also interesting to note that it is used once of believers (2 Cor. 1:21) and is used of kings (1 Sam. 10:1), priests (Exo. 28:41), and prophets (1 Kings 19:16).

It is not used of secular items. This term, as one might expect, originally applied to an oil, or an ointment that was put on a person, thus the anointing. Therefore, it is easy to see that it is used metaphorically in the New Testament. Twice the source of the anointing is stated: "an anointing from the Holy One," and "the anointing which ye received of him."

As in most "difficult" passages there are diverse thoughts, else they would not (for the most part) be considered difficult. There are two principle thoughts relative to this "anointing."

One is that it refers to the "measure" of the Holy Spirit that every child of God receives when he is obedient to the gospel (Gal. 4:6). The other is that it refers to the miraculous "measure" of the Spirit. Those who hold to the idea that it is the one received in the "common" sense state that we have it today. I do not think this view is the correct one.

It seems to me that this is the miraculous, and let us keep in mind that one of the nine spiritual gifts was that of "discerning of the spirits" (1 Cor. 12:10). The very best argument against the idea that all Christians (then and now) had such a gift would be the writing of the epistle itself! That is, if all children of God knew all things and had received this anointing, why then did John write a letter and instruct them in these things? Indeed, the context of this epistle is against this view of the "common" measure. They were able to detect these false teachers (1 John 4:1) and they were also able to "know all things," that is, those things pertaining to the problems at hand. (Certainly, they were not made to be as wise as God, omniscient! )

Surely we can see that the ones who had no need of instruction are those who had received the anointing. Therefore, to say we have the same is to say that we need not to be taught the glorious gospel of Christ! It is also to say that we have some kind of an "inner light," or "spiritual illumination" and there are those who believe this very thing. This could be that which makes many people today believe they can "set aside" the written Word (cf. 1 Cor. 4:6, which negates such), and even perhaps speak of it as a "dead book." What value is the Bible to us if all believers have what some teach as the meaning of this "anointing"? I believe that such verses as 1 Cor. 13:8-13 and Eph. 4:11-
13 come into play here. The time came when the "gift of discerning spirits" was no longer needed.

CONCLUSION

These "anointed" ones were able to truthfully detect error, they could speak the truth, they led in the right way, and as long as they would "abide" in the Spirit's direction all would be well. Thanks be to God today that we have the perfect law of God (cf. James 1:25); therefore, we, too, can test a teacher as to whether he/she is true or false!

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

No test needed, and I dont even need scripture to back me up as it is clear to me and many many others that Miracles do happen. I have a very close friend who just came back from a missions trip to Malawai last week him and his son were there for 3 weeks and saw first hand the work of the Lord through them. One fellow had sores all over his foot and could barrly walk on it and after being prayed for by my friends son he was instantly healed right before there eyes! another older man was unable to walk at all and was in a makeshift wheelchair all his friends were with him and he was also healed instantly and they were so blown away by this that they spent the next few hours dancing and shouting for joy in the streets around the group. Another incident was when the group was setting up for a concert they had a guy come up to them who cold not see and was also healed! These are all clear and strong proof that Miracles still are happening.
We have a student here in our university where I work at who was involved in a very serious car accident over the summer, if you would see the pictures of her car you would know it was a miracle that she even lived not to mention that she is here today and you cant even tell that she was even in an accident less than two months after the accident, Praise God!

Tony, you need to read this post.

http://www.bibletruthforums.com/calv....html#post6253

There are many that believe that if they fake a miracle, it will bring glory to God because the end result is people praising God. They think God accepts it because they are bringing glory to Him but it is done by false means, a lie, so the origins is not of God.

The inspired did not do obscure and fakeable things and call them miracles. It was obvious and regularly done to back up the Word they spoke.

Actually he would not be the liar (at least I hope not anyway)... the one who told him about it absolutely has misled some folks on what really happened though. Whatever they were, unless God lied, they were not miracles.

Tony... we probably need to take this to a private study thread. The Bible does clearly explains that miracles have ceased and are no longer needed. Either we are going to believe the Bible or we have to ignore it to accept that miracles still exist today.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Tonyvdb,

The time and purpose for miracles has ceased. Paul spoke of this in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Additionally, the purpose of miracles is no longer needed now that we have the Word of God. Notice:

1. Miracles were needed to confirm the word: Mark 16:20 / Hebrews 2:1-4
2. Miracles were needed to confirm who Jesus was: John 20:30-31 / Acts 2:22
3. Miracles were needed to edify the Church of Christ in its infancy: 1 Cor. 12:7; 14:5, 26 (1 co. 13:8)

Today we have the revealed word of God to guide the Church in all its ways. We have the revealed word of God to confirm to us who Jesus is. We have the revealed word of God edify the local congregation. The need for miracles as stated by Paul has ceased. Please give careful consideration to 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

What a coincidence that you would mention that these miracles occurred in Malawi. My roommate in college is from there. Please furnish me with the names of the location of those healed and I will see about making contact with them through a congregation of the Lord's Church that is meeting there.

Kindly,
Don

P.S.
Did you know that I was once healed? In fact, I was brought back from the dead! It occurred when I was baptized. I was healed of the spiritual death that comes by way of sin (Romans 6:23). The man who healed me was Jesus himself when I came in contact with his blood through baptism (Ephesians 1:7).

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Hey Tonyvdb,

Would you like us to open a new thread and study the topic of miracles with you? You see, we believe on this site that miracles have ceased. That may sound a little strange to you but we are more than willing to show you through the scriptures how we have come to believe this.

Please let us know if you would like to study on this topic.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

I would like this, I in no way want to upset anyone here as this is a place where we are one in Christ but I also dont like being called a lier. Robert I am sorry for your loss and dont have that answer for you and can assure you that it has nothing to do with your faith but I can tell you that the Lord has a reason for the way things went and he is in a much better place.
As for Benny Hinn and groups like them I have no use for them as I know they are a scam.