Hello all!

I like to challenge folks to think, so expect me to ask some thinkin' questions every now and then. Some may seem rather obvious, but the point is to make you think b/c the answer might be just that or it might turn out to be something different. And some things just don't have answers.

This first question is this:

Paul says, "I desire the men everywhere to pray..." and he requests that prayers be made on behalf of rulers, etc. We take these to be public prayers--petitions that are verbalized before the congregation.

Now, when communion is blessed, must that prayer be audible? Don't get caught up in the, "Well, it ought to be!" arguement--I'm with you there. But when Jesus blessed the loaf and the wine, did He speak to be heard of all there or was it an obvious, but silent or mumbled prayer?

Why should the prayers be heard by us? (an open question not necessarily reflecting my opinion one way or the other).

This question is thrown out to help us honestly study, so if you can't study without raging over why such a question is asked, look at your heart.

While the scriptures do not say that Christ audibly blessed the bread as in leading all the others in prayer, I think it is implied in the verses. First, Jesus was clearly leading this event, as He was audibly instructing them in what to do. It only makes sense that He would lead an audible prayer to teach them how to do it. Also, if this had been a silent prayer, instead of saying when He had blessed the bread He broke it, the scriptures would say something more like "when the disciples had blessed the bread, they broke it", indicating that each had said their own prayer, possibly simultaneously (more like a silent prayer). I think we can conclude from this that the example we have from Jesus is of the one leading the communion leading the others in public prayer and breaking the bread for passing.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Good thoughts, Laura. I don't think I can disagree.

Could I condemn someone for not verbalizing a prayer in this instance? Not necessarily, but I would certainly discourage it.

I do get a bit nervous to some extent when some protest that they could not hear every word of a prayer spoken before the congregation or if someone used a word they didn't like. I don't worry if I can hear it all or not--nor would I ask someone to dismiss the audience at a microphone if they didn't want to. The conversation is with God, not with man. Seems to me also as if the person praying makes the determination of what is said in the conversation with God.

But that's me. It's not something I intend to make noise about. I just like to challenge folks to think sometimes.

Well yes, this is the whole point of leading the congregation in prayer, right? If it's not audible, then the person leading isn't actually leading at all because each is then making his own determination about what to say!

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

The Jews meditations were even spoken aloud. The word "meditate" as I remember also means "mumble." See Psa. 19:14:

The first two lines are most likely parallel.

So the Jews would have found the idea of a silent prayer an oxymoron.

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Well, you got a point, but that's not really what I was getting at.

I think all the "regular" prayers are audible. In fact, I don't know that Scipture even allows for silent prayer in worship, though we do see an example in Acs of the entire body praying (in the Spirit, though) as one. I've been in congregations that do silent prayer and it makes me nervous. I don't feel it to be wholly authorized.

My point on saying that the person praying determines what to pray is that I've actually heard folks get on to others for what they said in prayer. Mind your own business, I say! It's their prayer, though, obviously, I'm not going to go into very personal problems in front of a group.

I have really taken flak on another prayer issue for pointing out that at times I can pray certain men's prayers b/c they always say the same thing. One fellow at a congregation I preached at even gave his prayer in a rapid-fire, manner like a schoolboy recitign "Friends, Romans, Countrymen lend me your ears..." I raised some eyebrows when I asked if our constant saying of the same prayer constituted vain repititions. I stil think it's worth considering, though that's something each person has to determine on their own.

Imagine if Joel greeted you every day and recited in a hurried fashion a "conversation" and then left? I'd figure you'd have something to say about second day or so....

I can allow for nervous men who write out their public prayers. No problem. I even understand expressions used all the time. But when prayers never change, I got me some doubts.

You know, in many places "guideguardanddirectusuntilthenextappointedmeetingtime" is one word...

(I like these cool smiles, I might add! )

Good point, Randal. The Jews still pray aloud today, do they not?

Well... if a brother is leading the congregation in prayer, the entire congregation had ought to be participating, which means the entire body is praying together as one, even if only one person is speaking.

Oh I've done the same thing. LOL You know me, I've got to stir the pot. I've always got to question and make sure everything I'm doing is right with the Lord. Sometimes that questioning makes other folks a bit nervous.

Oh I've never heard THAT one!

I figure you guys got a tough job. Getting up and leading the entire congregation is prayer can't be easy. So many women get upset about the role God has put us in, but honestly, I think we ladies got off easy. Not only do you GET to do it, you GOT to do it. So I cut you a little slack.

Randall, very interesting point. Something I didn't know. Thanks!!!!

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

How do you feel the audience participates in the prayer? I'm not disagreeing, just looking for your thoughts. I don't find Scripture one way or the other here.

I find it interesting that in our prayer life (publically) we have so many expressions that are the same from place to place.

1. Guide guard and direct us

2. The next appointed meeting time

3. Give the preacher a "ready recollection of the things he has prepared."

It's funny in one sense, but in another, when I keep hearing these, I get nervous. I get equally nervous when I hear the prayer in KJV English. Naturally that's ok and some folks feel it's special, but I want to be real with God and for me, I talk to Him in reverent terms much like I would to another person who would be in authority. (Child to parent)

Same way that a man leads the congregation in singing or in studying. The verb "to lead" implies necessarily that others are following. The song leader leads the others and everyone sings. The preacher leads the study in God's word, and the entire congregation studies and is fed God's word. The brother leading the prayer is not any different. If the congregation isn't following along, also participating, then he isn't leading, he's just saying his own prayer out loud in public, which is more akin to a soloist singing.

I guess another thing is that I don't look upon the congregation that is worshiping as the audience. I don't find this concept anywhere in scripture. The congregation is to be actively worshiping God, and HE is the audience.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

The congregation is not the audience.

In public prayer, one man leads, the entire congregation follows in silent prayer with him. This falls under the command to do things decently and in order. 1 Corinthians 14:40.

Imagine what a confusing thing it would be for everybody in the congregation to be praying aloud at once with their own prayer. We are to be of one mind in our worship.

Our worship is a sacrifice to God (Hebrews 13:15). We need to approach our worship with that thought in mind. Our worship is something that is offered to God. Our prayer together as a congregation of the body of Christ is just as much an act of worship as any of the authorized activities we engage in.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

One way is by saying "Amen." Which some congregations do not do at all. Disturbs me the silence of a congregation when the pray-er says amen. I assume they've not heard the prayer or don't agree with it.

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I do hear "amen" on occasion, but not frequently. I think the reason is two-fold. First, we bleached-white people seem to have gotten the idea that doing such is somehow not "decently and in order". We are so concerned about being proper. The second issue deals with us sisters. We are so thoroughly trained that we are not to utter a peep in worship except for singing, that saying "amen" feels awkward. I don't even like speaking up during announcements, which clearly is NOT an act of worship. I'll poke my husband and whisper in his ear. I will, however, catch the preacher's eye and nod, so perhaps that's a silent amen.

Honestly, I'd like to hear more amens at the end of prayers and during our lessons.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

This is a great discussion. We're hitting all around one of my pet peeves, which is the "said" prayer. The guideguarddirect us prayer. The prayer that is nothing but a memorized bit of prose we gents have filed away in our heads when asked to lead prayer. Where are the heart-felt, spirtually-minded prayers these days? I hear them only seldomly. They're mostly prayed when Steven leads.-------John

I used the term "audience" rather loosely. I hadn't thought of it the way you two mentioned, but naturally, y'all are correct.

I agree that we should say "amen" to prayers--both sexes. We lilly-white folks have allowed the intolerants (read less learned) to make us stay mighty still in the pews when there is nothing that stops the men from speaking out during the lesson (I encourage it and I have one man that quite frequently dialogues with me during the sermon, sometimes for several minutes, much to the congregation's amusement as we go back and forth), from saying amen (I don't have a problem with the ladies saying amen quietly, but I won't fall out with those who render silent as being totally quiet) and the ladies from speaking during the annoucement/prayer reqest period.

Glad nobody here's taken me to task for my KJV comments and guideguardanddirectus prayers. I have taken some beatins' in my time over those issues.

Joe, my dad does KJV prayers, because he learned that and with his limited public speaking capabilities says what he's been taught. But for the 50ish crowd and under, there's not much reason to continue using such language. It's a barrier to understanding and God's people should remove every barrier that keeps people from comprehending and responding to not only prayers but the whole gospel.

In the end, a man's public prayer is but a reflection of his private communion with God. Perhaps it's there we should focus our attention, to cultivate among ourselves and encourage among others a personal walk with God. That has received scant attention in our churches, I imagine, but deserves great emphasis.

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Many men are not comfortable in leading public prayers and I believe that they fall back on "memorized" wording. I admire men that are uncomfortable but still carry on and do the best that they can. I still get "dry mouthed" at times and the words fail me. As we get older, our minds do not function as rapidly as they used to. I was called on recently to deliver a sermon on about two hours notice because the preacher became ill. This was a challenge for me but I was able to complete the lesson. I really was caught off guard at the evening service when again the preacher became ill and I had no notice at all but again I was able to complete the task. I was at ease after beginning but my knees sure tried to fail me as I approached the pulpit.

All this being said, we are not given tasks beyond that which we are able to endure. Whatever way that the truth is presented is acceptable even if sometimes that we "memorize" certain words to convey our thoughts.

Just something from "the older generation"!!

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Bill, you talk like you're OLD, brother.

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Just a lot of water under the bridge, both smooth and some of it rough!!

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Got my toe in that stream too, brother.

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