Sure Steven... but let's not forget that reporting isn't necessarily bragging. It can be, depending on the motive and how things are said, but isn't always so. For example, missionaries report on their results. Is that bragging? I don't think so. They are often required to report on results, otherwise, their supporters will stop sending money. Esudas has an entire web site about his work here. I don't see anything there that equates to bragging, but some might take it that way. I could give plenty of other examples... but I do agree, many do use these "benevolence trips" if nothing else, as feel good trips ("I've done my duty".) I just urge caution in how we say things so as to not lump everyone in the same category.

A thought occurred to me earlier today. Maybe THIS is where the issue lies... not with using benevolence to open doors, but ... Think about this. Standing on the street corner yelling out the Gospel as people walk by isn't terribly effective is it? It's kinda akin to strewing seed to the four winds and just hoping it will land somewhere decent. But what is effective? How about getting to know the person and inviting them to study one on one? Perhaps the use of benevolence by some has been more akin to street corner screeching. Loudly marching in and just doing, rather than making it personal and one on one. People like to feel like they are individuals and not just a number. Nothing says that more than taking a personal interest in someone, whether through study, benevolence or both. Walking in as part of a big organized effort, fixing someone's toilet, and leaving just doesn't go there, does it? But individually walking up to a homeless person and inviting him to come study the Bible over lunch does.

AMEN! And this applies to preaching and teaching as well as benevolent work!

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Sure, we are in agreement and I pray I did not cause confusion. Reporting and informing is not the same as saying, me me me, we we we, my my ...well I think you get the idea. Humility is all I am talking about here. Motive is known by God but humility is the outward showing of it and an unhealthy level is to boast like Nebuchadnezzar, saying, look at all I have done!

I attend the Harrison Northside church of Christ's Tuesday Golden Year's class, and have for over 25 years. It was originally only the brethren, and a friend or two, that came. Then about 3 years ago some non members were invited. There is a married couple that are members of a denomination, and 3 men , two of which border on the homeless category. They are not members of any 'church'. I am certain 2 of them were only coming for the food. They had a habit of talking to each other all through the bible class, until they were spoken to about it several times.
Now the point I am wanting to get across is : none of these people have obeyed the gospel. They have heard the truth over and over, from a quite forceful preacher, and it hasn't moved them one inch ! I don't know if anyone is studying with them on the side.

Since we are not a public food room for the needy, I wonder if this is beneficial ? I liked it better when it was for the brethren. Harrison does have a senior center where elderly people can eat every day, but they are expected to pay if they can afford to.

I am certainly for helping those in need, whether they are members or not, but I wonder about free-loaders?

Our congregation gives to any one in the neighborhood who has suffered a loss, whether it is a family
member or a home, and to those who are undergoing a serious illness or accident, and need financial help. We are all for doing that.

What is your take on the purpose of the Golden Year's class ? Some have suggested we not have the potluck following the class, but it is such a blessing for so many of the elderly members.


I hope I am not sounding like a nit-picker, and uncompassionate.

Marian

Marian,

I don't think you are "uncompassionate". There are no examples in the Bible of which I am aware (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), where Christians or even Christ continued to provide for the physical needs of people who were simply there for the ride. In fact, I keep thinking in the back of my mind that there is a counter example, but I'm gonna have to dig to get it. We're not supposed to be a soup kitchen, engaged in the social gospel.

Just guessing, maybe the issue could be that no one has taken a direct and personal interest in these folks. I've never been a fan of conversion through the pews. I just don't think that really works much. Perhaps its time someone offered to have a one-on-one Bible study with each of these people? It's probably safe to study with the married couple together.

On the other hand, they may be making a trade with you guys mentally -- you give them food, they listen via obligation. It's kinda like those time shares where you get to stay a weekend for free but you have to listen to their sales pitch... Offer the personal Bible study. If they refuse, you'll know the situation.

Just my two mites...

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Your "free-loader" comment reminded me of something when I was a teen. There was a family that would drive through while traveling. They would always stop and ask for money for food and a hotel room. EACH WAY. And they never attended for services. They would show up when we were getting out. The first time, the elders obliged. They had children who were dirty and scrawny. The second time, which was only a week later... it became clear what they were doing. They did not receive assistance. It is my opinion that the elders exercised good judgment in this situation.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I think this is the passage I was thinking of. John 6:24-27
The dialog went on about spiritual matters and after this, many turned back. John 6:66. Jesus didn't tell them to go away, but He also didn't run after them trying to bring them back with more physical comfort. He simply told them what they needed to hear from a spiritual standpoint and let them then do as they chose.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Laura, I can see that we are in agreement on this. The Golden Year's class isn't in the church's building that they worship in. It is in a building that they built espacially for such things as the Golden Year's class, and other gatherings other that the general assembly. Some of the things they do there is have VBS classes, feed families of members that have lost loved ones, give Birthday gatherings for elderly members, etc.
There are tables and chairs, and a kitchen.
I think someone may have studied with the 'visitors'. I am not sure, and since it is not the congregation I attend, I am hestitant to question the one elder that frequently attends.( They have 9 elders.) I have the feeling he could not care less.
I do know at least one of the preachers, that attends, ( the father of the preacher at Northside), gets rather perturbed at the eating habits of the men that I mentioned. They usually take a lot of containers of food home with them.
One of those two men has recently been put in a nursing home, so only the one 'free-loader is still coming. He frequently sleeps through the class ! The third man is on oxygen, and uses a walker. I am sure he is not a member. I haven't noticed if he takes a lot of food home. He seems of a little higher caliber than the sleepy one.

Most of us have become accustomed to them being there, and several of both men and women greet them as if they are one of us. I am not comfortable doing that considering the circumstances.

They need to understand that they are not 'one of us'. Am I wrong to feel that way ?

I could never go into some denominational group's private gathering and make myself at home in such a way. It makes we wonder if they have no conscience. Maybe they don't even understand that it isn't a public gathering ???

Marian

Absolutely not!!! If they aren't being made aware of that fact, then someone isn't doing their job, IMHO.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

But it really isn't my place to point it out, is it ?

When I have voiced my discomfort to some of the other members there, I have been told, " Maybe they are hungry, and it's the only good meal they get each week". But I have had others tell me they see them at events where they have to pay for the food, and they are 'chowing down'.

I am thinking some member has encouraged them to come, and no one is brave enough to speak out against it.

I have thought about not going anymore, but I love the fellowship with brethren from various other congregations. I have very dear friends there.

Marian

Hmmm. I'm not really sure what to say. Perhaps taking one of the elders aside privately and voicing your concern? It really is a matter for their judgment, so I might state my concern and but then let that be the end of it. Perhaps the others here have better suggestions. Maybe Butch, since he's an elder, could speak to how he would want a situation like this handled?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I would like to hear what Butch has to say about it. And any of the rest of the brethren.

Marian

I would attempt to set up a bible study with then, alone and without food. I think it would be best if the elders did this. It might show them where the heart of this person is.

I look forward to what Butch has to say and would also welcome Bill and Dick, who are also elders.

John 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
KJV

We have a divine example of what Jesus did and what He thought about this very thing. These people were not coming to seek after God's righteousness. They were seeking full bellies. Jesus called them out on it.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Hmmm, without being too clinical ....

One thing that pops out in my mind is the comfort level that the "visiting" folks have achieved in the Bible study. We need to keep making clear to visitors that they are visitors. The ultimate problem gets to be their assuming they might be in a saved state if we aren't actively engaging them.

You might notice in many congregations that the announcements about a family that been coming for awhile are made about "those who have been visiting with us." The practice of putting the spotlight on them often should work well in a small group situation.

The cat's already out of the bag in this case, so to attempt to fix the problem....

First I would suggest this particular session might be a little "over their heads" and they might get more out of a particular Sunday school class or perhaps suggest a one on one Bible study. If they want to learn they will comply - if not then I think it is perfectly fine to ask them not to come to this session anymore because the sleeping / chatting or whatever is distracting to an orderly study and doesn't reflect a desire to be serious about the study.

If they push it and still desire to stay, then directing questions about the topic during the class might encourage a result one way or another. Again ... spotlight.

I agree with the Scripture quoted above fitting this situation.


We have a member (that is mentally functional but does have some problems) that announced that he would join the teen class because even though he's a little older (30 now) he might find more value in it. When he found out that we were memorizing 1 Cor 13 and was going to be held responsible for it out loud in front of the class, he went back to the adult class without conflict.

...b

__________________
Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

I agree that this is an elder responsibility. There are various scenarios of the presented problem and each must be handled on an individual basis. There is no room for a "blanket-fit all" rule. It is apparent, in this case, the ones projected are typical "free-loaders" and not interested in anything but the food. A one on one bible study is in order and if refused, I agree it would not be improper to ask them not to attend any more or just simply ask them to leave at the next gathering. David and Laura both quoted the scripture that I believe fits this particular case. We have "travelers" that drop by from time to time asking for assistance and this is handled on a case by case situation. Most times, it is obvious as to the intentions and these are generally refused. It is always a hard call but we have instructions on what the responsibility of the eldership and of gospel preachers is to be.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Good point on the multiple scenarios going on there.

If they truly repent and become Christains, the Lord will handle their needs from there. (Phil 4:6)

__________________
Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

Thank you for all the very good answers and advice. I will try to find an opportunity to approach an elder with these thoughts ( I had said there were 8 of them, actually, there are 9 now !) Some of them I know pretty well.
As an alternative, I may see if one of the men of the congregation will be willing to approach them. I think that would be better than a sister who isn't even of their congregation?
Would it be all right to e-mail them this thread ? That may be more effective, unless they may take offence at brethren from other congregations discussing their business.
I don't want any of us to be accused of being a busybody in other's affairs !

BTW, we used to be members of that congregation before moving to where we now live. The place we now attend is much closer,lots smaller, and needs us a lot more than they do.

I apologize for getting this thread off topic.

A little tact would be recommended in this case for sure. It just depends on your relationship with the group.

Also remember this thread is hardly authoritative in terms of the actual situation since what has been going on there has a lot of background that we didn't get to cover.


...b

__________________
Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

Sister,

I think this would be the better alternative. Since you are no longer a member of their congregation, it would be better received, IMHO, if one of their members approached the eldership with concerns. All of us must remain vigilant in THE LORD'S CHURCH.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

I would agree with Sister Laura. One of the "problems" in our worship assemblies is that those who are not members sing with us, pray with us, give with us, hear the sermon with us, and even take the Lord's Supper with us. With all of this taking place it should not surprise us when they just naturally assume they are part of the Lord's Church.

As others have appropriately said... this is a teaching situation. It would be best to handle it on a one to one bases and in the comfort of their home. Coming to the "preachers office" or to the "library" just make people feel uncomfortable and like they are in trouble. But if you go to their home and talk where they will feels safe the conversation goes a whole lot easier.

I would add that perahpse something like this could be said... "We have been so thankful to have you with us in class and worship. Now that you have gotten to know us and we have gotten to know you we would love for you to be added to the Lord's Church by God himself. This is what the Bible teaches about becoming part of the body of Christ........." It's a start.

Kindly offered,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org