I can go up to a fellow christian as an individual and inform another individual christian of a situation involving a needy non christian and ask if they would like to help out monetarily or for other things like clothes. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits me from doing so. However, the church treasury is used for things like upkeep for the building, preacher's salary, spreading the Word, supporting preachers in other countries, and for needy saints. That is all that scripture indicates that the church treasury is used for. There is a difference between church benevolence and individual Christian benevolence.

AND.... office equipment, supplies, class material, liability insurance for the preacher, liability insure for the congregation building-ground-visitors, fees such as building inspections- fire extinguisher inspections- boiler inspection, how about some health insurance for us preachers and some retirement, lawyer fees, advertising, and on and on and on. There is a lot more that comes out of the treasury than people realize.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Craig, Please do not be offended but hear be brother. You are sounding like a robot. You are seeing the scripture but not because you do not like what it says, you dismiss it. You must make this verse fit with all the other verses about giving.

I have not differed one bit with the verses you quote. I quote them myself. I am much more strict on these verses you quote than most of my brethren and I am NOT liberal about how I use or approach the Word. I think that if we were to compare approaches, I am more strict than you are.

For example, you were saying it was the Lord that chose the apostles, well I did not necessarily disagree but said we could not say that because the scriptures do not say it. You argued the point. In this situation I was more adherent with what the exacts of the scripture SAY than you were.

With this thought, please know, I so much want to stick with the scriptures, if I see 20 scriptures about giving to the brethren and two of them mention brethren and non-brethren, well that says something to me. I cannot say anything to God because He is speaking to me. What should I do with it? Throw it away or alter my mind to wrap around His Word instead of trying to wrap His Word around my mind/thoughts.

There is enough here in these two verses for me to not be able to teach it cannot be done but since there are two verses verses numerous other verses that obviously teach that the focus MUST be on the brethren, we must be careful when we do give to non believers and not take priority away from the saints, when giving from the contribution, as is done in 2 cor.

Yes that stuff can be included too. My list was not meant to be exhaustive But what is significant here is that these kinds of things are within the realm of scripture pertaining to the upkeep of the building. Using the treasury for benevolence for non-christians though cannot be demonstrated.


At best 2 Corinthians 9:13 is so vague that you can not honestly use that as permission to use the treasury to extend benevolence to a non christian. The view then should be to side with caution and not teach that it does.

So what do we do about benevolence then? I think the best and most proper approach is to extend individual benevolence from our own income and not from the church treasury.

Our non-Institutional brethren have always put together a well reasoned and doctrinally sound argument. Their use of certain passages and verses is worthy of consideration. In fact, when it comes to NI congregations and the way they deal with the scriptures, you don't see to many Max Lucado's coming out of their midst. neither do you hear things like, "That NI congregation over there is sooo liberal." It just doesn't happen- why not? They as congregations hold to a high standard of the scriptures and are very skilled in rightly dividing the word of truth. The most well know among them Brother Ferrel Jenkins is an excellent Bible scholar and preacher. His book on the Lord's Church is a must read!

When all is said and done and this present digression is over (IM in worship, Lucado, Atchley, women etc.) and the dust settles, it just might be our NI brothers that held the line and brought us through to safety.

I have not totally dismissed their argument regarding church funds and have kept an open mind to it. In some ways I see the abuse of the treasury and I think.... the NI brothers are right! Additionally, they are NOT opposed to helping orphans or widows or the poor. They agree that these things are to be done. The difference is in how and where the funds come from. On that point....I remain open.......

Kindly offered,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Oh and don't forget the song books. That is a business that makes them. They are an institution and makes a profit. Is this hypocritical? Nope but it can be if one binds this law as a whole.

What are you talking about Steven?

Think about it brother. Do you not have song books in your congregation? Is this song book company needy? Do they fit the rules you set about institutions? Did the money to pay for the books come out of the contribution?

Just giving you some things to consider.

Have you ever had a discussion with those that say you can not have classrooms in a building? Your reasonings are just like theirs. To them, you are a liberal and they do not fellowship you. Is this right to bind something like that on God fearing brethren?

Song books and classrooms are expedients and are appropriate things with which to use the church treasury for.

Then write your own songbook. You can do it. Congregations do not need to pay a company to do it. A company is an institution with a man that makes profit. Research them you will see. They also must be registered with government. They are not as needy as those children that need a home or else their family will beat the life out of them or abandon them to die in a trash can.

I am not saying this in a rude tone or motive brother but am trying to only reason with you in love. I promise..I am considering your points seriously and pray you you do not think I am not. I just have to respond where I see the scriptures speak and I am to submit. This takes righteous reasoning and scripture. Both I have supplied and pray you will see past your hard pressed position that is not full proof by any means to the level that this is something to bind and draw lines of fellowship over with other sound brethren that disagree in light of scripture.

Do you think it is fine to withdraw fellowship over such things?

Is everybody a musician? Does everybody possess the musical talent to write songs? I say that no, not everybody possesses that talent, therefore purchasing a song book is an expedient since we are commanded to sing.

What? You are defending this? You must be liberal! :holycow:

Seriously, you know each person can buy their own book, that you can print it off of the internet, that another brother in another congregation can write music and you make copies of it at the copy, BUT WAIT, each person must pay for their own copies.

Do you see where this leads? It is ridiculous!

You can have the same argument with one that agrees with you on giving from the contribution but they used this reasoning to lead them to not have classrooms or use one cup.

All I am trying to do brother is help you see that we cannot draw lines of fellowship over this.

Please answer my last question. Are we required by God to withdraw fellowship from fellow brethren over such things?

We are not talking about the liberal brethren that abuse the contribution but sound brethren that are very cautious and careful with the distribution but on occasion, when one of the people they may be having a bible study with, has some serious need and may need immediate assistance, assists them with something. Maybe their house burns down and they need some assistance for them and their babies.

This situation happens all the time.

Let's all take a deeeeeeep breath. Ah, in and out. Again... in and out....come on now, one more time...in and out....now doesn't that feel better what's that? I saw you smile!!!!!

There seems to be a little confusion over the institutional issue. Here is a wonderful article (it's short) with Ferrell Jenkins who is one of the best know preachers and scholars that worships with a NI congregation (actually, it is somewhat of an offense to refer to them this way. Just as I feel when they refer to us as Institutional Congregations, A better term would simplly be "Christians" or "congregations of the Lord's Church" ). Perhaps this article can clear up some of the confusion.

Give it a read http://www.biblicalstudies.info/

Kindly.
Don

P.S.
Man, I love you guys!

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Individual Christians who are able can use their own means to help that person out without taking the money set aside as the church treasury. Also there are places that are funded charities from private citizens and local government that can assist them.

In times past, churches have split over the things which you are speaking about. For me, I would attend and fellowship with brothers who are accurate and conservative in their approach to scripture and the carrying out of worship and practicing of the Christian life.

The primary sin, if any, that occurred some 50 years ago when the debate come to a head, was that brethren split over it.

I refuse to have the sins of people 50 years ago dictate to me today something that should not have happened in the first place.

I have to say that from what I read of their writings from back then, much of the root of the study was good on both sides, especially those on the side of using caution in regards to the contribution, but it got out of hand and turned into a large split.

I agree with Don, NI infers that those like us are for spending the contribution like it is our own spending money for the mall. This is just not the case.

I am VERY glad to see you will not draw a line of fellowship. Very wise spiritually since the verses in 2 Cor are very clear in subject, context, example and are so detailed that it separates the saved from the not saved and says the giving comes directly from the distribution.

No matter if the rest of the congregations did it this way or not, the Corinthians did and the inspired Paul did not have a problem with it and even encouraged them.

Don...dear brother, did you take your meds today? You know when you forget to, you become, well, emotional and touchy feelie..

brother Craig and I are manly men and give big back slaps and watch manly shows where people kill animals...

The congregation of the NI mindset (there I go using that term again! ) that have been near where I have preached have not attended our Gospel meetings and things of that nature. However, I have ALWAYS received a warm and gracious reception when attending their congregations or meetings.

It is my opinion that some of the most sound theological studies being done today in the Lord's Church come from the pen of men in NI congregations.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

After looking again what you wrote. I am not sure if you answered me. According to the example I gave you, would you remove fellowship from them, if in all other ways they were sound but did this out of the contribution?

After going to the home page it has a link to the right side of the page that says DIALOGUE Non-Institutional Churches.

Alicia is getting my meds right now so I can get caught up.

I may have misunderstood something here (like that would be hard!). Brother Craig are you saying that YES you will fellowship Institutional Congregations? At least those that hold to a conservative view.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

That's what I was trying to get clear.

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

I know! That is why it is our job to not repeat the mistakes of our past brethren. They should not have created such a divide. I am not AT ALL advocating fellowshipping sinful liberal congregations that transgress God's Word regularly. I mean sound brethren ceasing fellowship. God hates this sort of thing.