Was Peter's inspired message the first gospel message? When we read Luke's account I see Peter's words as the funeral service for national Israel.
Listen to his words again, "You men of Judaea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and harken unto my words." Reading Acts 2, verse 16-20 I see the prophetic formula for the judgmental destruction of a city or nation by God. I refer you to Ezekiel 32:7 the fall of Egypt by the "sword of the king of Babylon". Note the Hebrewism: "And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light." I read in Isaiah 13 of the destruction of Babylon by the Meads, "It shall come as a destruction by the Almighty" (verse 6); note verse 10: "For the stars of heaven and the constellations therefore shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Get a good concordance and find the number of times this type of Hebrewism is quoted in the Bible as "destruction."

Those "devout Jews" at Pentecost recognized Peter's words as "destruction" when he quoted Joel's prophecy. "And I will show wonders in heaven and above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood and fire, and vapour of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and noble day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:19-20).

Peter said "save yourselves from this crooked generation." This is the same "generation" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23:33. Listen to His words: "You generation of vipers, how can YOU escape the judgment?" Read again His words of judgmental destruction in Matthew 24:29. ""Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Theses are words of destruction to a nation that will kill the Son......History reveals that Rome destroyed the Temple with its alter and animal sacrifices in 70 A.D. Judaism is gone and the Messianic kingdom that Daniel spoke of in chapter 2 verse 44 still stands and will stand "forever." The local church of Christ, the Messianic kingdom, with all its victories and fault's of Christian people still operates under the cross in cities, towns, and hamlets throughout out the world. Wherever apostolic doctrine is being preached...there is the Messianic kingdom.
Jack Mann

It depends on what you mean by "Gospel message". The foretelling of Christ's coming was written in many of the passages of the Old Testament and many things Christ Himself repeated when talking to the Jews and even some of the Gentiles knew and understood...take the woman at the well with Christ (John 4:5-29).

The church is simple that...the church and it belongs to Christ. We have it in the local and universal sense. Just as they had a congregantion in each city, so do we...that is what is meant in Romans 16:16. But again, it is the church in the universal sense meaning the entire world and that is what is meant in Matthew 16:18.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Appreciate your remarks, but a "Gentile" hearing Peter's inspired words at Pentecost would have no idea what he was saying. We must remember that the church was a "Jewish" church for approximately ten years before Peter was "sent" to Caesarea to preach to the household of Cornelius (Acts 10). We read of Paul going to the Gentiles in Acts 13. In Acts 1 the Lord had instructed the Apostles to be His witnesses to Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and in Samaria (Philip) and unto the uttermost parts of the world (Paul).

The church was to be founded upon apostolic doctrine. The Bible teaches that the foundation of the church was laid in Zion (Isaiah 28:16). It was from Zion that the "new" law eminated. (Isa. 2:3, Mic. 4:2). The party spirit is condemned in Christianity. (1Cor. 1:10-13); she can have no fellowship with false doctrines and movements. (2 Cor. 6:14-17).

The local church is the fellowship of the forgiven. The objective character of union with Christ.
Justification: Romans 3:26; 2 Cor. 5:20-21. The church must teach salvation by faith and faith is being "in Christ Jesus" it is not the theory of a "mystical union"; and sanctification is not a test of justification.

We read of the church Christ founded: Fidelity to the Apostles' Doctrine (1 John 2:24-28); this is the exegesis of Matthew 25:30-46 in Jesus' "Judgment of the Nations". Question: Is your local body of Christ led by the collegiate eldership? leadership by principle verses personality. Read Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5; Acts 20:17; 1 Tim. 3:8-13. Your deacons: do they qualify as in Timothy 3:8-13? Where do you stand in Evangelism? "We henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Eph 4:11).
Nothing worse for the "kingdom" than a "babe in Christ" debating a skilled non beliver.

It is this church that is the "remnant": Romans 9:27; 11:5-7. It is this church that is the olive tree of Romans 11:24. It is this church that is the hope of Israel, Acts 26:6-7; 28:20. There may have been a "church in every city" in the ancient world.....but, where are they now? The church of Christ in America has become as the church at Lacodicea...."luke warm". Expository preaching is a thing of the past.....Preachers are now "elected" to the eldership and have become so wrapped up in the color of the building they cannot exegesis John 20:21-23 anymore than Acts 2.
Jack Mann

Jack, your blanket statement of the church and its preachers makes you the judge and lawgiver, does it not? (James 4:11-12).

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Interesting that Christ knew and did announce to His apostles that there were going to be more than just the Jews that His Word would reach or do you not know what Joh 10:16 means?

Let us look at it...

other sheep I have ... not of this fold: them also I must bring — He means the perishing Gentiles, already His “sheep” in the love of His heart and the purpose of His grace to “bring them” in due time.

they shall hear my voice — This is not the language of mere foresight that they would believe, but the expression of a purpose to draw them to Himself by an inward and efficacious call, which would infallibly issue in their spontaneous accession to Him.

and there shall be one fold — rather “one flock” (for the word for “fold,” as in the foregoing verses, is quite different).

Have no disagreements here...

The church must teach the WHOLE Gospel and not salvation by faith. I wouldn't put it that way because you will give many denominations room to say "see, that is what we have been saying all along!"

If you know where the qualifications of an elder and deacon are and so does the congregation that I work with and worship with. Does yours? If so, then why are you asking me that? If you don't, then study a bit more. As far as where I stand, try reading Joshua 24:15 and then read Phil. 1:15-17

Agreed, but I might add it is also worse for one who cannot make it simple for the unbeliever to understand the simplicity of God's Word without using simpleness.

Maybe YOUR congregation is like Ladiocea, but to say BLANKETLY that the churches of Christ in America are that way...you better rethink your poistion of judge and jury and executioner. You are not God and cannot make that judgement. I was not elected to eldership and as far as the building, I preach that the building is just that...A BUILDING!!

And guess what? Because of sin in the world and Satan using his power in the world many are leaving the church, but we have still a fight on our hands and it is up to us to continue and to "recruit" (if you will) other to help fight for God.

It is the church that His body (Eph. 1:19-23) and I don't need to use words that simply mean to explain. What do I mean? If I were to use the word "exegesis" in some churches that I preach...they would not know what I meant. Preachers HAVE to be simple in their messages and I can do that AND still get the Gospel across.

From what I see...some preachers try to look big by seeming to be so-well educated that people will look to them as being almost perfect and withhout fault. I am not and will not appear in that fashion. I will appear as Paul stated what he was to Cornelious in Acts 10:26.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Sorry Jack,
I understand what you say but do not know what point you are trying to make or exact question you want answered.

Again, you are throwing a lot of information at me. I do not mind length at all but there seems to be many topics here.

The one thing I wish to address primarily is that the church does exist, even though in recent times, we have lost congregations by the droves. The way you phrase it comes across as judgmental but I have to admit, in the area of the country I lived in for a while, I could not find a congregation to worship because of the extreme amount of disregard and disrespect for the Word of God and Pattern of the church so I can understand if you feel isolated and question the state of the church today. Yes, many a follower of Christ are lonely and often left to feel abandoned by friends, family and loved ones, because they held to the Truth.

Is this how you are feeling? Are you looking for the Lord's church/people? The people that have not wandered off into the wilderness of worship according to personal opinion? If you are, you have found the right place and group to study with. All of our teachers Love the Lord and have not bowed a knee to Baal.

From my brethren online, I see the Lord's church is Alive and Very Well world wide, not only in a small pocket and rural areas in the US but everywhere! We just have gone through some pruning. Thank the Lord.

Also, Jack, if you really want to know where I stand...try here:

http://www.bibletruthforums.com/test...ght-truth.html

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Gentlemen, gentlemen.....
Why so offensive? As Jesus often said, "do my words offend you?" You say, "Because of sin in the world and Satan using his power in the world many are leaving the church, but we have still a fight on our hands and it is up to us to continue and to "recruit" (if you will) other to help fight for God."

Brother White writes: "It is the church that His body (Eph. 1:19-23) and I don't need to use words that simply mean to explain. What do I mean? If I were to use the word "exegesis" in some churches that I preach...they would not know what I meant. Preachers HAVE to be simple in their messages and I can do that AND still get the Gospel across."

Brother White, you go on to say: "From what I see...some preachers try to look big by seeming to be so-well educated that people will look to them as being almost perfect and without fault. I am not and will not appear in that fashion. I will appear as Paul stated what he was to Cornelious in Acts 10:26."

My thoughts brother....Jesus had no problem with men being "educated." This is why He said "go teach and make disciples." (the action verb is "make"). You can only dribble out the "milk" for so long until the "babe in Christ" becomes stagnant; it is the "meat" of the gospel that attracts the attention of men..... Men in the pulpits will not attack the five points of Calvinism in their congregation because of the many setting in the pew who believe in the "faith only" doctrine taught by Graham, Hinn, Swindall, Roberts and the host of lessor lights. When you explain that the Protestant world is mired in Calvin's misinterpretation and exegesis of Romans 9 you are going to rattle the mind of many who will take their check book and leave. Therefore, many remain ignorant for the cause of the collection plate.

If you do not teach by hermeneutics and exegesis of the text, there is a Jimmy Swaggart out their who will lead those souls down the "feel good" isle to the alter. Do you teach by expository preaching? Do your sheep know why "God made him to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"?

Men need to know in their minds; without the understanding of the mind their is no edification...Souls are being lost because we have men preaching who cannot "persuade" men because of the "milk" hear from their pulpits! By the time many of our congregations stand and "meet and greet," hear fifteen minutes of announcements and fifteen minutes of music with or without the instrument (most have no idea what is being sung); here comes the preacher with his milk bucket....Are you familiar with Romans 8:29? "For whom he did foreknow; he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Men must be fed the Word, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart."

A preacher/teacher not equipped to "teach" is a "spy in the camp if Israel." Paul wrote to Timothy these words: "The things that you have heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit you to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." Christianity is "taught," not "caught" and I am tired of hearing preachers in the church of Christ blaming apathy on "Satan"....when our preachers can not preach the word as it was preached in the days of the apostles.

It is not the preachers job to analyze ever soul setting in the pew, it is his duty to preach the word by using ever arrow in his quiver to "persuade" souls to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be immersed into Christ for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Brother White....you may want to read Acts 10:26 again; it was Peter, not, "Paul" that informed Cornelius to "stand up," not "Cornelious".
Jack Mann

Hi Jack,

I've been reading this and keeping quiet but feel compelled to respond. I understand your fervor and greatly commend such. I too love the Lord's church deeply and it pains my heart to see so many so confused due to lack of knowledge. Yes, this is due to weak preaching, but the problem is much deeper. Ultimately, the responsibility lies at the feet of the elders, for the flocks as a whole, and individuals, for their own spiritual well being. Where are the strong elders who are demanding the teaching and preaching of God's full counsel? Why are they instructing preachers to NOT preach on specific subjects? Could it be fear of losing people, and thus dollars in the collection plates? Why are the people demanding weak preaching? Could it be itching ears? What about the role of parents? Did we not properly bring our children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? You see, there is plenty of blame to go around.

I ask you to consider, however, that all have not gone that route, just as all did not bow a knee to Baal. I invite you to take a listen to the sermons coming out of our pulpit. I believe you will find enough meat to sink your teeth into. I do not believe any of the good preachers here, such as brother White are preaching weak lessons based only on milk either. Please get to know our brothers and their teachings first before pronouncing them as weak preachers, if that is what you are doing. If that is not what you are doing, my apologies. Please be clear on your purpose so that all may understand.

In Christ,

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Well said sister. I suspect Jack you have been hearing a lot from weak and liberal brethren and may possibly be filling in a few blanks with us and have a few assumptions that we may be the same. You are not among the weak of heart here regarding the Word and preaching the full counsel of God. Yes, even the hard to accept parts.

Jack, I have a question for you…why do you think the people were attracted to the Master teacher?

Your words are not offensive...but you don't understand what I was saying, do you?

You read it and it seems to have gone over your head...and I will explain (I don't need to use the word "exegesis") what I am talking about.

When I preach it is with SIMPLE WORDS! Now do you undestand. Or let me put it another way. THere was a lectureship that came to a small rural town. A well educated preacher stood before the congregation. He use "educated words" (like I see you using). The congregation listened but did not understand his wording. Sometimes brothers who wish to get the message across FORGET the audience needs SIMPLICITY in the message. The next brother preach just as powerful but used common everday words that the "normal" person could understand and they were very responsive to the message...why? Because he brought it to their level of understanding.

Uhh, listen...first maybe you need to rethink what you ask. I don't have sheep. I tell no man to FOLLOW me. I tell them to follow Christ. I may be an "overseer", but I am not the shepherd. Understand? I don't preach so that others will feel good (and if you read my post in the testimonial section, you would know that by now). I simply preach. I don't have to say "I use expository preaching'...I simply preach the Word and if I preach the Word...the sheep will know. And maybe if you keep using the nice educated words, there is a Jimmy Swaggart out there that will gwho will bring a message that will be at a level of common people's understanding and they will led away by simplicity rather than an "educated" sermon.

Example for me was this: I preached on the church and what is the body. I didn't need anything else but the Bible and used scriptures that were plain to see that the church is the body and Christ is the head of the body ad that the body is the church. I did not get up and say anything like "as I exegesis to you, dialogue with me on the preceeding verses"...why? Because I might loose some in the audience!

Already knew that...

The same can be said about one who is appearing to be higher than what he truly is.

Once again...that is already know by me...

But still you did not get it...Paul told him to stand because he was a man and NOT the one to worship, but we have so many prachers that seem so educated they end up allowing (or worse...making some believe they should) be worshipped in some fashion!

Brother Mann...you may want to re-read some of your own thread. I read of great Gospel preaching done by Marshall Keeble and others that used simple, everyday speech and that is what I am refering to. If you came in front of a crowd in my area and talked about "let me exegesis this..." people wuld look at you like "what did he say?". We must be simple with the message and to avoid confusion, consider your audience first and not your own level of education.

If you would do that, you will be more effective. Trust me...as an educated evangelist, I have learned by experience.

And again so you understand because I see you didn't respond to it...YOU can NOT make banket statements on EVERY church od Christ congregation in the US or in the world because you have experienced something. If I had did that after my first experience, then I would be preaching His Word now.

Now I would like to see you answer Steve's question, because I was going to ask that also...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

It seems that we need men like Marshall Keeble and like Guy N. Woods.

You are right brother White, we need to consider who it is we are speaking to. A good proclaimer of the Gospel gives his hearers what they need, and knows how to deliver that message. I preach at two congregations and the lessons that I give are just as different as the way I present them. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Therefore my messages must focus on slightly different things and must be presented in different ways.

Jack you are also right in that there seems to be a serious lack of knowledge among may in the church. Perhaps things are cyclical, when times stop being so "good" perhaps more will desire to be closer to God. But when you paint with such a broad brush, brethren become offended. We may feel that you are targeting us. And Why? Because we didn't answer your test thread sufficiently enough? Because we don't show enough "trained schooling"? I am just curious brother.

We are here because we desire to learn and to grow, and to be associated with those of like mind. Therefore our intentions here are honorable. Perhaps if we were sitting at home twiddling our thumbs satisfied in the extent of our knowledge then it would be appropriate to rebuke.

On a personal note. The congregation where I grew up has about 125 on Sunday, about 80 solid sound members. Out of that 80, 15-20 men give lessons on Wednesday nights, at least 12 men have delivered sermons on Sunday. 10 of whom have spoken at lectureships. 5 preach regularly at other congregations. Only 1 went to a school of preaching. All are around or under 40. ALL are well acquainted with the Holy Text, and I am encouraged by all of them.

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

The apostles came from all walks of life, some more formally educated than others. Paul was schooled with the best. Peter and James were fishermen. Paul spoke in complexities; his writings were difficult to understand for many, as Peter noted in 2 Peter 3:15-16. Were Peter and James of less value than Paul? Did they preach weak sermons because of a lack of schooling? I think not.

As for today and what we do... Where were the formal preacher training schools that granted "degrees" in the first century? I ask this with all seriousness. I don't think such is necessarily wrong for us today, but let's not forget that being an apprentice and learning under a more learned person was the way of training in the early church, for both men AND women. Paul taught Timothy how to do the work of an evangelist and instructed that the older women to teach the younger women. I think sometimes we are guilty of getting "preacher school itis" where we elevate those from one school above another or from any school over one not from a school. That is not God's way.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN SISTER!!!

If I had not received the teaching of a sound country preacher, I would not have questioned what I heard in the congregations and youth get togethers at Oklahoma Christian during my studies there in the late 80s-90s. He did not have a single letter after his name.

I second that! I did not go to a school, but I simply received my training under a wonderful brother that took my under his wing and taught me how to preach and be most effective to ANY who would hear my voice...not just those who may have an education.

I have asked those who say that the preacher must have attended a "preachers school", did Timothy attend a school? Did any of the those who were taught by the apostles attend a school of some sort? Or were they just taught the Gospel and then taught by simple brothers to teach others?

Think about it...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15