The new testament makes some statements about the old law that are important if we are to understand the separation between the two.

The old law could not make anybody perfect/complete
Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The old law could not take away sin:
Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

The old law was not without fault:
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The old law could not give life.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The old law could not bring righteousness.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The old law could not justify us.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

The old law was a law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The old law has been abolished.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The old law has been taken out of the way by Jesus' cross.
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

We have been delivered from the old law.
Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Following the old law makes one a debtor to the whole law.
Galatians 5:1-3
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Following the old law causes one to fall from grace
Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

God's new covenant is law.
Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

We are now under a new law. It is called:

The Law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

The law of Liberty:
James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty , and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The Law of the Spirit of life:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The Royal Law:
James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The Law of Righteousness:
Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The Law of Faith:
Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The new law is not like the old.
Hebrews 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The new law is better.
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

The new law is everlasting.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

What the son of God did on the cross was completely/utterly sufficient that every human being on earth would have salvation AVAILABLE to them (Luke 3:6, it takes great faith to trust that the crucifixion was sufficient and that "law" and self effort cannot ADD anything).

If we do the works of God (John 6:28 and 29), we will REST in The Lord that He did everything that needs to be done to have salvation available to us (of course, we want to receive living water baptism of God's spirit, John 7:38, Revelation 7:16) so we "neither thirst" (this is the water that also flowed from Christ's side at the cross) and have our conscience purified also (Hebrews 9:14) and learn the "depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10) and the "better things" that belong to salvation (Hebrews 6:9).

We have to trust that both the law of commandments and the law of N.T. commands/ordinances were abolished by what Jesus did, and that He wants us to live under the law of liberty. Jesus is our foundation/cornerstone. We must not set a foundation of our own with any self-works (self effort),...because then, repentance in Christ becomes impossible (Hebrews 6:4). The Lord's judgement is always just, He is not going to be unjust and overlook this apostasy of ignoring the sufficiency of what He did on the cross.

Jesus also left His spirit for us to learn from so that if we learn the "sword of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17) and the "depths of God" (1 Corinthians 2:10), then we will have the "guarantee" (2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5, Ephesians 1:14).

In Jesus is "the WHOLE fullness of God" (Colossians 2:9) and we have already been justified IN CHRIST (1 Corinthians 6:11, Galatians 2:16 and 17). We simply have to "walk by THE SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16 and 25), not by faith, "the GREATEST of these" (1 Corinthians 13:13) for a "more excellent" devotion (1 Corinthians 12:31).

Our goodness should be of our own freewill (Philemon verse 14) and we should know Him as "Abba Father", not 'master'/taskmaster (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6) so that we can be a "friend of God", not slave/servant (James 2:23).


All verses are from the RSV.

Yes it takes great faith but faith withouit works is dead. Inspiration teaches we are not justified by faith only. James 2:24-26. One cannot build a doctrine that excludes any of what inspiration teaches. Such a doctrine is a manmade one.

Jesus did His part. Now we have to do ours. Jesus is the author of salvation unto all them who obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9).

Of course we want to tarry not, arise and be baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27, Romans 6:3) for the remission of our sins, (Acts 2:38; 22:16). There is no salvation outside of Christ therefore baptism is necessary for salvation.

Ye do greatly err. The law of liberty is the law of the NT. It is called the law of faith (Romans 3:27); The law of Christ (Galatians 6:2); the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2). Regardless of what it is referred to in different passages, NT law is a rule of conduct all Christians must observe if they hope to inherit eternal life. The words of Jesus:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Jesus you claim to believe in said those words. How can you claim to have faith in Jesus Christ yet reject what He plainly said? You are going to be judged by the words Jesus Christ uttered (John 12:48). While I agree that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was sufficient to bring about our salvation, that does in no way mean we have no obligations to Him.

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Repentance is a sorrow of heart that leads one to a change of behavior. Under no circumstances whatover does our obedience to God's nullify our ability to repent.

It is apostasy for someone to seek to be obedient to God and serve Him? What Bible did you get that out of? It sure isn't the one I study.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 2:4-5
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar , and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

We do not ignore what Jesus did on the Cross by a life of faithful service. That is how we honor His sacrifice. Our obedient service glorifies God before the world.

He sure did. And it's written down for us to read in the holy scriptures by inspiration and obey the word of God. Our assurance is guaranteed with our obedience. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Only if one is "in Christ" and "walking in the light" which means living faithfully. See 1 John 1:7. Living faithfully is how we maintain our fellowship with God.

Walking by the Spirit means living faithfully according to the word of God.


You would use James 2:23 to try and set forth a doctrine of salvation by faith only? I cannot think of a time when I have seen a verse of scripture used more out of context than that.

First of all, you are absolutely right that we should obey God from the heart. In fact scripture commands it.

Romans 6:17-18
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

But you somehow think that to diligently try and live faithfully somehow automatically means we don't want to. Such is not the case. I doubt anyone here in the forum serves Christ out of drudgery. I certainly don't. I cherish my service in the kingdom of Christ and I constantly look for opportunity to do more. Why? Because I love Him.

You seem to think the commandments of Christ are something to take or leave as you see fit. You claim to have this great faith that He will save you but you do not have faith in what He says you have to do. You are ignoring that altogether.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Friend, you better back up and read the whole New Testament. You have cherry picked through the scriptures and built yourself a doctrine here that does not encompass all of what scripture has to say.

I know a cookie cutter post when I see one and that is exactly what this was. You need to stop and ask questions and see what is to be learned here. You might find out that you have been missing something all along.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

I realize that the common habit of systematically picking out and separating each part/section of a post in order to object to the WHOLE message piece by piece is not undestood as "taking out of context", but it is a tactic used by the god of confusion to keep humanity from realizing objective truth (and it is VERY effective). However, we all have freewill, this habit is the 'status quo' (accepted norm).

I also realize that whenever I say/write anything that is contrary to the status quo, I will be resented by the other person because they use the status quo to validate themselves. Their intention will become 'singular and inflexible' and that they have already decided that they must forever object to and discredit whatever I say/write (at this point, actual "DISCUSSION" is starting to seem impossible).

Yet, all of that is not what really boithers me, it is the ABUSE/ridicule/mockery part ("cookie cutter post" that your puffed up 'master scholar' intellect has imagined). Whether or not you realize that by being a "master intellectual scholar" you are glorifying YOURSELF (not GOD), I don't feel the necessity of accepting abuse from you.

IF you ever do become a 'GODLY' Christian, you will first have to learn to be CIVIL (but civility is not taught in the traditional "christian" teachings of MAN).

"...they refused to love the truth AND SO BE SAVED".

The reason your post got picked apart is because about everything in it was wrong. It was the only way I had of addressing each point of error.

You are nor were resented in any way by me. You were in error and I tried very diligently to correct you. My "status quo" is in line with the totality of scripture. Yours only lines up with those verses used out of context that support your view. Discussion is only impossible when one of us refuses to discuss. You have a Bible, I have a Bible. So discuss.

The verbage you used in that post was verbatim with some of the verbage you used in another post in another thread. It appears to me you assembled both these posts from components of works you have elsewhere. There is nothing wrong in that. I do it all the time. That is why I recognized it. You posted your little cookie cooker post, now it's time to support it. There is no reason for you to be offended.

I am not a puffed up master scholar. In fact truth be known, I am a poor dirt farmer who can't make a living at home and has to work construction just to have enough money to lose some on the farm. I have a high school education and am self taught from personal diligent Bible study from a heart that desires to know and serve God. I am not trying to glorify myself, far from it. At this point I perceive in you a lost soul in need of saving and I am prepared to do whatever I can to help guide you to the light if you will but accept it.

Get your Bible, open it and discuss. You have nothing to lose.

My sincere apologies are offered if I offended you in any way. It is often the case that these forums are limited in their communications in that it is impossible to project tone and feeling into screens of nothing but text. I assure you, I have nothing but your interests and the glory of God in view.

And as for whether or not I am a Godly Christian, I diligently strive to be. I understand the fact that I am going to have to "Do" in order to hear the words "well done".

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:23-24
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Study with me. I am humbly at your service.

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

What are you talking about?

You make a post and it is wrong to take scripture and show it to you for your study to see if it is true? This has nothing to do with self righteousness but God's. We go to Him and His scripture to find the Truth.

There is no wisdom, but God's, no opinion but God's, Jesus said NOTHING except what the Father said and commanded. He told His will and Word only.

That is all we have of God. The Word. That is all that has authority. No human on earth has any authority to say anything about anything spiritual, except it come from scripture. If we did, then we could be our own savior and we would have no need for God.

You speak with judgment about a loving christian that dedicated his life to the Lord. He was only pouring out his energy to teach and apply the Word of God.

Instead of judging, you might do well to read the scriptures, check the context and see if what has been presented is Truth. If it is not, then please present the scriptures that conflict with the proposed teaching. That is the whole purpose of the Word..to confirm the Truth.

Please reconsider your words before pouring out insults that do not really hurt us but the Christ you profess and we love since He rebuked satan with scripture and taught us to follow His example. Do you think Jesus was out of line for doing so? How about the apostles, when they did?

Why have teaching if there is no absolute Truth? That is what you are saying, isn't it? If the Word cannot be used or referred to, to correct error, there is no errror then and anything goes. Actually, you are making your own law...The law that if one uses scripture to correct someone, they are a sinner and not of God.

Do you really want to go before God and try to explain this one away? Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to teach us the rest of the Truth. This means it takes more than the gospel to save someone, it takes being born, then abiding in the Truth and Word, which is the doctrine of the apostles, given by the Holy Spirit. This means it counts for something and is worthy to be used for not only reference but also learning...

Please learn from the scriptures and quit resisting them. If you know the scriptures, use them and do not let your emotions fuel your jugments but instead, let the scriptures guide them for by them we learn Christ and His Word to us, the church.

If you are wise in the scriptures, use them, teach us if what you have been taught is wrong. We are always studying together in this site and differences are often shared, but in love for God and His Word. Not in bitter insults and poison of speech. It is as if you are saying, it is your way or the highway. So who is doing the law giving here? God from the scriptures or you and your opinion and man made judgments/teaching?

Please take this post as an encouragent to have a study, not to be mean. I just care enough to let you see the seriousness of your action. If you truly care for souls and God, you will return with a different attitude and respond in a spiritual mindset.

Romans 2:21
You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?

1 Corinthians 2:13
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Galatians 6:6
Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

Colossians 1:28
Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings[a] of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.[b]

Hebrews 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

2 Peter 3:15-17
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

"and so be saved". Please stick to studying the Bible and stop launching verbal assaults on those who do not agree with what you have to say. If you disagree, simply say so and show scripture to back up why you believe what you believe. If we all do this, then we will learn together. Thank you in advance.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Who here has ever been taught that that there is a difference between Jesus's purification of the flesh (Jesus did this for us on the cross, Hebrews 9:14) and purification of the conscience (the GUARANTEE of salvation)?
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search...tee&t=RSV&sf=5

How about a NON-double talk explanation of the water that flowed from Christ's side at the cross?

I remember a pastor once gave a sermon about the water that flowed from Christ's side. That pastor spent about 45 minutes saying "Well, uhh, I don't really know, but it could be maybe a disease or phenomena that a person's sweat could possibly mix with their blood when they get nervous, either that or maybe something similar, but, uhh, scholars don't know for sure or really have any explanation,...and on and on and on for 45 minutes.

I came to this forum because I thought it had a special focus/emphasis on deep truths that can be found in scripture. I realize that the status quo is society's (the 'world's') comfort zone, but a GODLY devotion should not rest in' the world's comfort zone, but rest in Jesus. If you are ever going to discover the absolute truth about anything, you are going to have to leave the world's status quo comfort zone (become a renegade of the status quo).

A bible scholar may accumulate many commentaries, dictionaries, etc,. study hundreds of sermons, read Christian articles (Matthew Henry's commentary is 5 inches thick, maybe 50 million words). All together, a Christian might study about 200 million words....in order to try to understand the ONE (ONE) God (compare 200 million and ONE,...big difference, isn't there?).

Leave the status quo of institutional Christianity, explore the possibility that the creator is more than a book, and seek objective/unbiased truth.

NOTHING in scripture just 'happened'. God made sure that Pilate said "What is truth?" (keep in mind that Pilate was not a philosopher). We never find any answer in scripture until John 14:6, "I am the way, the...").

When money is used for a DEVOTION to God, it is called "mammon". The institutional/traditional church has always used "mammon" as a requirement for devotion (THINK HARD).

Mankind has always taken the 3 gifts of God...
1) creation (Father)
2) salvation (son)
3) Godly teaching (spirit)

and replaced it with the teachings and habits of the 6th day creation (note 3 times 6).

Open your mind, leave the comfort zone (but you can't, can you? instititutional christianity has removed your individuality/humanity with "self abasement"...
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search...ent&t=RSV&sf=5
("I am who I am" doesn't want this).

Traditional/institutional Christianity has always been under the "strong delusion" because they "refused to love the [absolute objective unbiased] truth".

Strive to have a "more excellent" devotion/relationship and "enter by the door" (John 10:1) because the "hirelings" have not taught us right.

With all do respect, from what I have seen from your first 2 posts, you need to be focusing on the milk of the word and save the meat for when you are a little more on track.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 13:23-24
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


Think Hard

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

What did The Lord say He will do in the last days?

What did The Lord say we (sons and daughters of grown men) will do in the last days?

Why did He use the word "POUR"?

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search...OUR&t=RSV&sf=5

"rivers of living water" (water baptism, John 7:38,Rev. 7:16, so we may drink of His spirit and "neither thirst") so that we will worship in TRUTH and SPIRIT.


(but you can do as you wish, everyone has freewill).

Please do not project upon us your frustration about a sermon you heard from a guy that has nothing to do with this forum or those of us studying with you. We know nothing of this sermon and cannot address it.

He said He would pour out OF His SPIRIT on the sons and daughters of those present on Pentecost. Don't read more into what God said than what He actually said. That's called "adding to" which is condemned in the book of Revelation.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Joel 2:28


He wasn't talking about us today. We do not prophecy today. Read Zechariah 13 starting in verse 1 and pay special attention to verse 2. You are real big on Joel's prophecy. It'll be interesting to see what you have to say about that one.

On this we agree wholeheartedly

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Interesting that you seem to not want someone to pick apart your post to make sure if what you are saying is truth. Too bad because God's WOrd teaches us to be like the Bereans. If you cannot accept that then you don't also believe in 2 Tim 2:15.

And I love the "judgement" you give as if you know a man's heart already...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Your words, right?

So anyone that does not tell the truth is a liar...right? Romans 3:4

One says that we DO NOT walk by faith...man.

God's Word says that we DO walk by faith...2 Cor. 5:7

Now who do I truly believe???

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

How old are you Terry? You sound like a teen ???

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV

Robert, I am hoping they have not 'tuned in' here yet this morning.

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV