Based on the responses I received with regards to my postings of my humble opinion in another thread and since everybody here claims to have the absolute truth of the Scripture, perhaps, anyone can educate me about the popular belief of "fall theory", based on your doctrinal teachings -- "rightly dividing the word of truth".

It is my understanding, based on the Scripture, at the time when Adam & Eve were created in the image and likeness of God (Gen.1:27; 5:1~3), both have already committed their "original sin" and Cain had already killed Abel. Would this be the case?

Surely, this analogy is contrary to those who subscribe to the teachings of "fall theory", correct? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

That type of doctrine is the "guilty before we do it"...and if that is the case then what you are thinking is that God is allowing tings to happen and ther is nothing we can change about it. Do you believe that a person come into this world born a thief, drug user, rapist, and many other things or do they have a choice in what they wish to do?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

“And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Genesis 2:15-17).

God created man, and then God granted man free will of choice. Man can choose to obey God and live OR he can disobey God and die. God established ‘freedom of choice.’ When God commanded the above there was no sin in man for the serpent had not yet arrived in the garden…that’s chapter 3.

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

It would be nice if you don't try to assume what I believe in, especially, if you don't know where I am coming from. Also, I thought I asked the questions first, didn't I? However, let me explain to you my thoughts, in case you don't know or not sure about how to answer my questions.

It is my opinion, the speculation and implication that Adam died Spiritually after committing the “original sin” would mean to me that.... the God Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost made a grevious mistake -- to begin with -- creating Adam in their own image and likeness, spiritually, but, only to be taken away from their hands by the old serpent. Such is not the case because I believe this speculation is only based on wild imagination of men.

The Scripture is very clear in documenting us the book of generations of Adam, IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) they were created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27; 5:1-3). It is also my biblical fact that this specific time of "creation event" took place only AFTER both A&E have already committed their "original sin" (Gen. 3); Cain had already Killed Abel and only AFTER man began calling upon the name of the Lord. (Genesis 4). The next generation in his likeness was Seth not Cain, as recorded in the Scripture (Gen. 5). The context of the text is also consistent as outlined and summarized in Genesis 1:27.

Look and read closely...

Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. IN THE DAY (very specific time of event) that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; v2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. v3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is confirmed in Paul’s epistle, 1Corinthians 15:45-46

1 CORINTHIANS 15
v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Therefore, it is my biblical opinion that -- NOT everybody is created in the image and likeness of God upon natural birth - unless, of course, you are born again or created spiritually in the image and likeness of God - who is an Invisible Spirit. Most certainly, Cain, who was a Murderer and a Liar from the beginning, was not an image and likeness of God.

I will be more than happy to listen and be corrected, if proven wrong, based on your claim of having the Biblical knowledge of the Truth -- "rightly dividing the word of truth".

God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

Man was created in the image of God. This meaning he has a conscious and can think for himself and is capable of knowing right from wrong and has a spirit that will live forever.

Individuals have all these same characterisitics.

If I am not understanding you then kindly accept my apologies. But each man will bear his own burden as far as sin is concerned. Galatians 6:5

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God are accountable for our own transgressions. But nobody is accountable for the sins of the others. Read Ezekiel 18.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

I agree with you, however, that's not the issue I brought forth above. It's my opinion that the doctrinal teachings of "fall theory" is based on the abysmal understanding of the timing of the creation of man in the image and likeness of God. I believe Adam and Eve were made natural living souls first, then, committed their original sin and were cursed - but thru God's mercy and grace, both became the first couple to be redeemed by the Lord -- by being born again or created in the image and likeness of God, spiritually. (Gen. 5:1~3)

The opinion is based on my understanding of my previous post above. Thanks

God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

Genesis 5:1-3 is just a statement of what was already done, “In the day that God created man.” Don’t make more of it than the scriptures teach.

And how were Adam and Eve born again?

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

ok. The clouds are starting to part and I can see through. Nobody on earth was redeemed before the cross. Please consider:

Hebrews 10:3-4
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

To get the full picture it would be good to read the entire context down to about verse 14.

Now harmonize this with:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Paying close attention to the bolded words. This should be enough, but however if you need further reinforcement, please consider Hebrews 8:6-7.

Adam and Eve lived under the Patriarchal age. Little is known of that system but we do know from Cain and Abel that a system of sacrifice was required for the atonement of sin. The men of the households served as the priesthood under this system. Anyway, the point here is that since the law was unable to take away the sins of man, it stands to reason that neither would the atoning process under the patriarchal system either. God wouldn't replace a perfect system with a faulty one. Ref Heb 8:6-7.

The sins of man, all of them were only atoned for by the blood of the sacrifices. Atonement is another word of appeasment. God allowed the blood of these sacrifices to appease his righteous nature until such time that Jesus would offer His blood and reconcile all men to God both before and after the cross.

Nobody on earth was redeemed of their sins before the death of Jesus on the cross. The sins before the cross were atoned for, but it was the blood of Jesus that ultimately redeemed them or purchased them back from spiritual death.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Sorry, but the patriarchal age started during the time of Abraham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchal_age

The bible contains an intricate pattern of chronologies from the births of Adam, the first man, to the reigns of the kings of ancient Israel and Judah, at which point the bible makes contact with known and dateable history. From these it is possible to calculate that Abraham, the first of the Patriarchs, was born 1,948 years after the Creation, corresponding to 1812 BC.[1]

Try again?

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

Dear BVidlar,

Here's my take....

Genesis 1 is an Outline of ALL of the events leading to the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days. That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts agree totally and in detail.

What is amazing is that God wrote our History more than 3,000 years ago, and the events at the end of the 6th Day are still Future. IOW, God told the complete story of the Creation in Genesis 1 and beginning at Gen 2:4, we begin to learn the details of the events of Genesis 1.

In order for one to die Spiritually, one must first be Born Spiritually.

There are three (numeric) that bear records in Heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one (unity). 1John 5:7. "Let US" create man in our image after our likeness" requires that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit operate in unity or agreement to make one a Spiritual Being. This is confirmed by John 14:16-17 which shows that the agreement of "US" is necessary for a Spiritual Birth.

When Jesus physically formed of Adam from the dust of the ground, on the 3rd day, becoming a natural living soul Gen. 2:7– it was not a spiritual birth, since, Eve was not yet made from his rib nor it included the agreement of "US" at that particular time.

Both were created in the image and likeness of God, spiritually, at the same time on the 6th day (Gen. 5:1~2)-- long after they have committed their "original sin" -- AFTER they began calling upon the name of the Lord (Gen. 4:26]

Again, this is confirmed by Paul in 1Corinthians 15

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is spiritual.

God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

Oh yes the bastion of infallibility...wikipedia. This is a bible forum sir, please stick to the scriptures to defend your points if at all you can.

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

The order of creation is quite clear in Gen. 1. You are twisting Gen 1 which is a timeline to fit Gen 2 which is an overview. If God had made man on the third day as you argue then it would be recorded. However in Gen 1 it is cleat that it is the SIXTH day.

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

Sorry, but there's no need for me to twist Scripture. In fact, I believe that your interpretation has some problems. Gen 1:29 says that mankind will eat of every tree. Revelation 22 shows that we will Not eat of the tree of Life until we get to Heaven. Gen 1:30 shows that EVERY animal will become Vegetarian. This phophecy will Not be fulfilled until Jesus returns to this Planet. Isaiah 11:7. The prophecy of the end of the 6th Day is Future. We will Not have dominion over every living thing, until then.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, v10 DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Here's my reconciliation of the text involved during the PHYSICAL MAKING of Adam on the 3rd day. My words are in black.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

The 1st Firmament called Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day. Gen 1:6-8 This verse is speaking of heavenS being made in the SAME day as the Earth. The 1st Earth was made on the 3rd Day. Gen 1:9 The ONLY Day the Earth and the other Heavens could have been made was the 3rd Day.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.

This verse continues to identify the 3rd Day. The plants and herbs were made on the 3rd Day. Gen 1:11-12 Why is it so important for the 3rd Day to be identified. Read the next verses.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. v7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As you should clearly see, Adam was made on the 3rd Day Before the plants, herbs - after the mist/rain that watered the whole face of the ground. Once you understand this, you will see that mankind has preeminence or first place among all other living creatures. It is also in agreement with the events of the 6th Day when the LORD made the animals from the dust and brought them to Adam to name them. Notice that Adam was ALONE at the beginning of the 6th Day. Gen 2:18

I thought you guys here have the absolute truth of the Scripture -- "rightly dividing the words of truth"-- based on your claims? You should not have any problem supporting your views and objection with Scripture, correct? Now, do you have any Scripture contrary to my understanding as far as my recorded stand is concerned?

God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

In (Gen. 1:5) “day” means a 24 hour day, “one day.”
In (Genesis 2:2) “day” means seventh day of creation.
In (Genesis 2:4) “day” means the whole of the first 6 days.

The bottom line is that “day” can mean a 24 hour day OR “day” can mean a period of time and this is what (Genesis 2:4) is saying…a period of time:
“These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”

If you can accept that then you can understand why God did not make man on the third day but on the sixth day as the simple recording by Moses tells us.

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Where can we begin with your teaching to show it wrong? The very basis of your idea is out of bounds. Where did you even come up with such a concept?

You give verses and say they somehow prove something. Each verse is accepted by us but in it's "context". I can prove anything I want to, if I pick verses out of context and outside of the correct sphere of implication.

Verses for the sake of verses is not sound but rightly dividing the Word means not going outside of the Word and being true to the context.

The timeline of creation is not 1-2-3..and when Moses in the Holy Spirit says the days were 24 hours and there were so many days, well, that settles it and I can go before God confident and faithful that I did not go beyond. Some of the instances in Gen, it goes back and forth explaining certain parts of creation being created during certain days but then reflect back to earlier and later times as events are recorded. This aspect of the book does not allow us to take liberty with it and stretch for meanings that are at best personal opinion and at worse, outright false teaching.

Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve and the creation in past tense:

Mark 10:5-10
5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’;[b] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


The physical tree in the beginning was real and the one is Heaven is spiritual. There are not physical trees in heaven. You are plucking out of context here to prove a point that does not exist.

Revelation 2:7
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”


Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Adam brought death and sin to humanity and Jesus took it captivity.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Romans 5:11-13
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Ephesians 4:8
Therefore He says: “ When He ascended on high,He led captivity captive,And gave gifts to men.”

I see that you want truth, so here it is...and please explain about the third day here...

Straight scripture...no twisting of anykind done by me whatsoever!

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Adding onto Steven, we can easily see that after these passages there is more detail given as to how God made woman, but the basic is given to when man was created...and since it says woman along with man...well, I can easily see truth. Or do you think the entire Bible is 1-2-3-4 also?

I have sent so many edited things to wikipeadia, it is really NOT a good source for information if you want truth...especially dealing with scriptual things. Of course you stated that there was other planets where man lived, I believe??

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Brethren:

There was no 24 Hour Day and Genesis 1 does not state that there was a 24 hour Day. Genesis shows that God has 6 Creative Days, and 1 Day of Rest which will Never End. How do you explain that you think God has more than 7 Days?

The first chapter of the Bible tells the complete History and Prophecy of how God created the Perfect Heaven. God wrote our History, before the events are complete. Declaring the end from the beginning. Most of the rest of the Bible refers to the present 6th Day, but ALL of the Bible refers to the events of God's 6 Creative Days. That's why we are taken back to the 3rd Day at Gen 2:4. The narrative is adding details to the events listed in Gen 1. Both accounts agree totally and in detail.

At the end of this present 6th Day, God's Perfect Heaven will be Finished or brought to Perfection. Then, God will Rest, that is, He will Cease to Create, and the 6th Day will end.

The Bible was written for the past, present, and future. It is relevant for today, and tomorrow. Written by the Supreme Intelligence, it's just too hard for unbelievers to comprehend. The only way they will understand is to pray for more wisdom.

I realize that what I post is controversial, but I also realize that it agrees not only with Scripture, but also with true Science, and History. I do not write the things I write to cause others, problems, but I write to cause others to read and study Scripture, and to see that God's Word is the Truth in every way. JMHO.


God Bless

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Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:1

wow..you have totally called God a liar. Do you realize that? He did the writing, not you. He says it was in days, you say it is not.

Romans 3:4
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“ That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.”


You do not have God speaking to you and your not inspired. You cannot throw His Word aside because your teaching and the bible do not match up.

Ac 17:26. And He made every nation of men of one blood, to live on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling, (Gn 1:1)

Hebrews 4:3-5
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“ So I swore in My wrath,

‘ They shall not enter My rest,’”[a]

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;[b] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[c]

When the world was created, God did it quickly, not at the present rate of matter breakdown. It was a miracle and happned quickly. They used to say that diamonds were ancient but now they can make them in a lab like popcorn. Test a clam and it is ancient but is actually days old. You cannot take the Truth and twist it into your own ideas, but instead you are to bend your mind around the Word.

You speak what your father speaks and we speak what our Father speaks. If the Holy Spirit wrote creation this way and even is referred to in Hebrews in the Holy Spirit that is was the 7th day, that is all I need to know our position is secure.

Your position is sand and is built upon your own pride that you think you have figured something out. God's Word is us to learn from and is not confusing.

Jn 8:44. You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it.

You can either repent of this teaching and begin to submit to God's Word or you can continue hardening your heart with shallow pride and be lost. I can assure you, all your debate will be useless when we face God, especially when we threw aside His Holy Word in exchange for something different that makes us feel better.

The problem is not that you are wrong or even misunderstanding but that you are arguing with the clear and plain Word, saying it does not mean what it says.

Are you going to now say that Jesus is not Jesus and the bible is not the Word, oh, and do not forget to go all the way and say there is no God, since all we know of God is the Word. If we throw it down and twist it around like it is our toy and rubber band to stretch in any way we wish, we have missed the whole point of the Word.

John 1:1-18

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[b]
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[e] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


1 John 1:1-18
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your[a] joy may be full.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Revelation 19:13
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 3:15-17
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;


1 John 2:5
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, His way is perfect;The word of the LORD is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.