Do the Scriptures teach that depression, mood disorders, and other mental illnesses are sins? Sometimes mental illnesses can cause one to do things that one ordinarily wouldn't do. Comments?

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Interesting question.

My initial thoughts are that I would believe we would have to understand what we are doing, be mentally sane, in order to realize we are sinning, but I don't have any Scriptural reference at my fingertips for these beliefs at this moment.

What I might would ask is how does the depression, mood disorder or mental illness come about? What causes or caused it? Is it sin that causes it or caused it and would that even be relevant?

I think about how various people in the Bible could have easily been and probably were depressed after certain actions, some most sinful actions... particularly Adam and Eve after eating of the tree, or David after his sin adultery. Sin caused their guilt and depression.

I will defer to others who can probably give you a better answer, but this article from Apologetics Press might be helpful.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I read the article from Apologetics Press last night and was simply astounded!

There is one thing that I agreed with in the article…criminals trying to use MI as a defense for the crimes that they have willingly committed and are trying to escape their punishment. This gives those of us who have MI’s a bad name. Excuses, excuses, excuses, people say.

We in the MI community did not ask to feel/be this way. We have chemical imbalances in our brains that can only be dealt with through the proper medications and psychotherapy to help us change our thought processes, such as cognitive behavior therapy.

MI is gravely misunderstood!

This is all that I can say at this moment; I need to read the article again to refresh my memory; but I would, however, like to ask this: Based on the Apologetics Press article, can one who has a MI not be forgiven because they “continue in sin” due to their illness?

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

This is one of those matters that require sensitivity.

On the one hand, I do believe that there are times in life when there are chemical imbalances for many reasons other than sin. The teenage years would be one of them, and pregnancy and post-partum periods in women. There may be other triggers and causes. In many ways, we simply just don't know enough yet.

To say, therefore, that all chemical imbalance is because of sin is a bit myopic. Chemical imbalances can occur for many reasons.

On the other hand, I do believe that there are some people who use possible mental illnesses as a "crutch"; such people are not really mentally ill, but have a predilection that they like to justify for whatever reason. I have seen this in many children labeled ADHD but, quite frankly, were simply lazy. I have also seen this in many "hypochondriacs": every sniffle needed attention.

In the end, I think our difficulty is that we don't really know enough to make good answers. All of us have our particular "abnormalities" that we consider parts of our personality. Just as some may have deformities physically, it is just as possible that there are the same things in psychological terms. The important thing is what we do in our circumstances: will we use what we have for God or wallow in self-pity?

ELDV

__________________
Ethan R. Longhenry / deusvitae@hotmail.com
Evangelist, church of Christ in Norwalk, Ohio
Homepage

I don't think we could answer that question based on that article.

I would question anyone with a genuine mental illness being accountable, but there are probably other questions that would need to be answered before making that call.

With my limited knowledge on this, I'll be better off deferring to someone more knowledgeable on the subject.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

MI is grossly misunderstood.

There are disorders such as major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder (manic depression), schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, agoraphobia and all other phobias and disorders. These are true conditions. People who suffer from these certainly don't want to be this way. That is why we take meds and go to psychotherapy to control them. Much of the time it takes months, maybe years, to get the right combination of meds to help control these horrible symptoms/feelings. Even then there are vestiges of symptoms that cause discomfort. Many times, the symptoms return with a vengence!

People who falsely use MI as an excuse for their misdeeds, hurt those of us who are truly MI. We are suddenly cast into the same category as they are.

I'm curious where Ethan picked up the word "triggered." It's a word we use in the MI community. We ARE triggered by certain events that occur in our lives. Nearly a week ago I was triggered by an event and have been sleeping most of each day because of it. This helps me to escape the feelings of worthlessness and helplessness.

I belong to a MI forum and have communicated with or read some of the members' posts who have become so disenchanted with the religious community because of the sin issue and the non-acceptance of them that they have actually left their churches and become agnostic, athestist, and even Wiccan.

I believe that the Church needs to have a better understanding of MI. People are suffering silently in our congregations for fear of being judged.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Pam,

The scriptures do not teach that depression, mood disorders,
and other mental illnesses are sin, in general.

Let's examine:
In I Kings 19:4 we find Elijah in the following scenario:
But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers.
This is depression.

Now let's look at a more extreme example:
The night of Jesus' betrayal, he went into the garden and prayed 3 times, that
if it was possible, God remove the events that were about to take place....sweating as drops of blood.
This was the fleshly side of Jesus showing what anyone in his position would
be feeling at the thought of what was to come.....We would probably call that
"anxiety".......Was he sinning? NO. Why? Because despite his concerns, he trusted in the Father, knowing that His Will had to be accomplished.

As humans, we all have times we are depressed, anxious, etc. In fact, part of the joy to look forward to in Heaven, is that there will be no more such things. The main thing we must remember however, is that we must address our concerns to the Father and then trust in Him that things will advance per His Will.

Another aspect of this though, is that sometimes we experience these feelings when "we have sinned". That is our conscience trying to get our attention, so that we repent of that sin, so that we might be made whole once again. When we do this, those feelings should then subside.

As far as those that are truly mentally ill, to the point of not being able to determine right from wrong, I believe that they are most likely in the same condition as a child who isn't able to determine right from wrong, and is covered
by the grace of GOD.... HOWEVER, when it comes down to it, we aren't the ones to make such judgements; only God Himself knows the heart and mind of every person, and He in His wisdom, will judge these individuals.

It's kind of like the hypothetical question, "If a man who has heard the gospel taught, believes it, repents, and confesses his sins, is killed on the way to be baptized...is he saved???".........That's not our call.......That falls into the realm of God's business. I could tell you what I think, just like I could meet someone who is mentally ill and tell you what "I" belive their condition to be, based on my knowledge, BUT, only the Father is omniscient, and perfect in His judgement; so let us trust in Him to make these decisions, while we do all that we can to help those who need to be strengthened.

__________________
May God help and keep us all,
Gregg A. Parker

Greg,

Thank you for your well thought out response. I really appreciate the Scriptures that you cited.

I am not talking about the everyday ordinary depression that people suffer from due to everyday life. I'm talking about CHRONIC depression...depression that plagues one every day for no reason at all. Some depressions that cause one to want to die at times. I "die" each day by sleeping day and night to escape these feelings.

Generalized Anxiety Disorder is CHRONIC and VERY painful. Panic attacks come from out of the blue and are considered unbearable, also. In the case of GAD, consider wanting to bang your head against a wall to overcome these feelings. Panic attacks make you feel scared and like you are dying.

Bipolar (manic depression): a disease where you have mood swings between being manic/hypomanic and depressed. This is the disease where many people such as the church and other religious people consider being sinful. When a person is manic, they do things that ordinarily they wouldn't do; e.g., spend considerable amounts of money not considering the consequences, act inappropriately in certain situations, etc. During this period of time, a person feels "high" and don't want to come down because it feels so much better than the depressed feeling. When the feeling is over, the person plunges into a deep depression.

There are many other mental illnesses, such as schizophrena, each being caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, genetics, and environmental situations. That is why MI people must take medications and have psychotherapy to help alieviate these symptoms. Of course, I am not leaving out the Bible for it can be a source of comfort, particularly the Psalms, but not because it is a sin to be MI.

We need more Christian counselors, ministers, elders, who understand MI and counsel based on the clinical illness and "peppered" with Scriptures that are of comfort and not of condemnation!

Like I mentioned in my previous post, in another forum, I have read of personal accounts where people have left their churches due to the persecution that they were sinning because of their depression, etc., and become Atheist, a member of a cult, Wiccan, etc., where they find acceptance.

Let's be more understanding of our MI members and offer them love and support rather than condemnation and/or shunning. Let the leaders of the church be more educated in this area.

Comments?

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Pam,

I agree with most everything in your last post.

Most of these types of issues are what I would consider "medical
issues" and you are right that under no circumstances should we
shun or persecute these folks.

If we have the type of love for our brethren that we should, we will
always do whatever we can to help, in such situations.

If individuals that are battling such, "do sin" however, they should repent,
confess, and pray for forgiveness just as any other Christian. Aside from
that, I regress to my prior statement, "let us trust in Him to make these
decisions, while we do all that we can to help those who need to be
strengthened".

Take care my friend.

__________________
May God help and keep us all,
Gregg A. Parker

Here is an interesting article by Wayne Jackson:

http://www.christiancourier.com/arti...and_depression

He has also written a book on this subject called "The Bible and Mental Health" which you can get from www.amazon.com.

Hope that helps.
Jason

I'm not aware of any Scripture that condemns those who are mentally ill. As Gregg and myself eluded to earlier, in order for a person to be held accountable, they must capable of understanding right from wrong. If a genuine mental illness causes you to sin, I'm not sure you would understand right from wrong under that condition of the illness. However, I think this also might henge on what brought on the mental illness... was it sin that brought in on? If so, then it might be that the person would be held accountable, but again, I'm just not totally sure. There doesn't seem to be any Scripture that specifically speaks about what happens to those who are mentally ill, but there are many Scriptures on principles of life that may very well be suited to those who are mentally ill... depending on each situation.

Are these real Christians in this forum... are they members of the church? There people are leaving "their churches"? Of course we know there is only one church. I believe true Christians are going to be more understanding than those in denominations. If they are really members of the church of Christ, then indeed those congregations and elders are quite possibly failing their duties. Leaving a Baptist or Methodist church to be in a cult or become an Atheist is really not anything more than a lateral move as far as salvation is concerned... both are lost. What they suffer is not persecution because they are not Christians. What I guess I'm trying to say is that I probably wouldn't get too worked up over this. There is not much you can do about it other than pray for them. I believe Christians (not superficial Christians) are going to be much more understanding than you suggest.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Hi Gregg,

Thanks for your reply.

Speaking for those who have bipolar (manic depression), there are times when one who is manic who does some things that are inappropriate or in bad judgment. This person may or may not be aware of what they are doing and don't realize it is wrong. When this person realizes what they have done later on (either on their own or someone telling them), then I think that this person should ask forgiveness since it has come to their attention. That's what I would do as a Christian. But I still don't think that having ANY mental illness is a sin.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the link to the Christian Courier. I haven't had a chance to read the article by Wayne Jackson but I have made a copy of it for more convenient reading.

Also, I am excited about getting the book by Wayne Jackson, "The Bible and Mental Health." I checked out the Amazon books but they were used and rather highly priced for their condition. I googled the publisher but had no luck. I plan to call a church of Christ bookstore tomorrow and see if I can get it there. If not, our church secretary knows someone who has Mr. Jackson's number.

I hope to revisit the Christian Courier website and add it to my favs. It appears to have many interesting articles.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Brother Sonnie,

Many people in denominations truly believe that they are worshipping and serving God properly. They just need to be taught correctly.

You mentioned that these people who left their churches made lateral moves from a denomination to Atheist, Wiccan, etc. I have to disagree. While there is salvation ONLY in the one Body, I think that it is a big leap to say that someone who believes in God then becomes an Atheist is a lateral move.

No, I don't know the depth of these people's faith. It could have been very weak. But let us think about the church. We have weak members, too. What if MI was looked at as a spiritual weakness? Wouldn't that discourage that MI member to the point of seeking other support and "giving up on God?" That's not too far of a stretch.

Some MI patients are very fragile and vulnerable. We, the church, need to be supportive of them in any way we can. But some MI people are very good at hiding their MI due to the stigma that goes with it. Let's do our best to be supportive of ALL our members.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Hi Jason,

I've done quite a bit of research trying to find a new copy of the book, "The Bible and Mental Health." On Amazon.com, like I mentioned earlier, they had used copies going for just under $28. I called the bookstore this morning that our congregation uses and found that they have many of Wayne Jackson's books including "The Bible and Mental Health." The book is just under $9 if I remember correctly. I don't know why the discrepancy unless they were hardback ???

I hope that it isn't against any rules to do this. If so, the Administrator should delete it; but if others have difficulty finding books, they may want to try this source: Christian Family Bookstore in Chattanooga, TN. Their website is www.tuckersbooks.com. They are currently updating this website so you may want to call for book availability. Their telephone and other contact information are on the website. Disclaimer: I have no personal affiliation with this store. I just know that they are a good source of Bible based books.

Thanks again for the recommendation of the book.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

With all due respect, that is not exactly what I wrote and I don't think you would disagree with what I actually wrote... "as far as salvation is concerned... both are lost." You left that part out.



Yes indeed we do have weak members in the church and we always will have. We need to work with these in all areas of their life because there are several things that they may look at as a spiritual weakness that could very well discourage others.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Christian Family Bookstore is a good source. I just recently ordered quite a bit of material from them.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I deeply apologize for leaving the above part out. It was not my intention. I agree that "as far as salvation is concerned... both are lost." But don't you agree that a person who believes in the true God, even though they are mislead, is making a GIANT leap to believing there is NO God at all? That's what I meant. It really breaks my heart to see these people "give up on God altogether" because of their denomination's lack of sensitivity to their MI. I hope that is a little clearer. I would NEVER want to mislead anyone. Again, I apologize.



AMEN! That is what happened to me when I left the church for four years. I was in a depression and later a manic episode and my judgment was impaired. A devastating remark was made to me and later I left the church. The person involved and I have asked for each other's forgiveness and all is well now. So you see, I'm vested in this subject, too, having had personal experience.

Like I said, it took me four years to return to the true Church. I am thankful first and foremost for Godly parents who kept encouraging me and reminding me of the truth!!! And also for my meds which helped me to think more clearly. I would never in this world imagine me leaving the church but I did due to discouragement.

As someone said earlier in this thread, this is a very sensitive subject and I appreciate you letting it be discussed in this forum. If it helps one person, I feel that it is worth it.

I hope to be a National Certified Counselor in the future and desire to use my practice as a Christian Counselor. I need your prayers to grow and become stronger in the Scriptures.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Hi Jason,

I received the book, The Bible and Mental Health by Wayne Jackson today. I'm very excited to get it and I appreciate the recommendation.

I perused it and it "appears" to mostly refer to MI as a sin problem which I was disappointed in. However, I shall read it and give it a chance. He may address some MI's as legit.

One point that I ran across was that of depression being the result of personal guilt. A person who is MI feels personal guilt even though they may have no responsibility for that guilt...they have no self-worth and feel helpless and hopeless. I speak from experience. Take for instance an adult who has been molested as a child. There is a lot of guilt experienced there from the time it happened until the child becomes an adult. This was not a sin of the child but yet the child feels guilty and this guilt is carried throughout adulthood if not treated with some sort of psychotherapy.

Christians should not be ready to jump on the bandwagon that MI is a sin and that the MI can "straighten up" and be "cured" by repentance. No one knows each others private demons. As a matter of fact, I believe that because of the stigma of MI, many MI Christians don't ask for prayers and encouragement for reasons of being judged or people being afraid of them and shying away from them, making the MI person feel even more worse than before.

I shall read the book and report back to you on my opinion. Again, Jason, thanks for the recommendation of the book. I know I will learn much from it even if I may not agree entirely on it.

Blessings,
Pam

__________________
"Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9 NKJV

Is this something you are experiencing frequently? I'm just not seeing it. Superficial Christians may be this way, but I just don't see true Christians being "ready to jump on the bandwagon". I've talked to several Christians and all of them are and would be very understanding of someone who is mentally ill. I believe a true loving Christian is going to be very loving and understanding.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Brother