http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080702...alyartaccident

I could care less the work of art broke; rather, I saw something amazing in there that I didn't know. Is it true that the Catholics consider the archangel Michael a "saint?"

If so, I just can't comprehend that. To be a saint by Biblical standards, one must have been human (or at least I would gather that angels are not saints--they are angels).

Anyone know the answer?

Hello,

How do you define sainthood?

Very well stated Brother Robert!

In the Bible the word "saint" is used interchangeably to refer to Christians. For example... notice how it is used in the book of Romans:

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Rom 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which [I have] for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

Here we can see how the word is used interchangeably with Christians. The error of the Catholic Church in this area is their doctrine that one can "become a saint" by meeting certain criteria. They deny the "sainthood of all believers" and hold it for a select few. In their thinking it goes like this:
God
Jesus
Apostles
Saints
Christians

If one is patient enough they can help a Catholic to study their way out of error and become a Christian. It takes time. The main problem being that interpretation of the scriptures is held in the authority of the "church". By this it means the clergy, priesthood and of course the Pope. If a Catholic understands a verse or passage in a different way from the "Church" the Church has the final and right interpretation.

But one can study them to the point where they can understand the truth of God's word and be saved. I should know... I was once a catholic!

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Hello peace,

Please tell us how you define sainthood. Please use Book, chapter and verse in your answer as Robert and I have. We want to keep this discussion focused on what the Word of God says and not what we say.

Also, please support with Book, chapter and verse the Catholic practice of "making one a saint". Please show with Scripture where this process is taught in the Bible.


We are glad to have you post on the site and look forward to opening the Bible and studying with you. Also, as a Catholic would you please share with me what the ISBN number is on the inside of your Bible (sometimes it is on the back cover as well).


Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Hey Peace... where are you my friend? Come join in on the discussion.

Kindly,
Don

P.S.
Don't forget that ISBN number on the Bible you use. Thanks!

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Sorry Don for taking so long to get back to this discussion but things have been crazy at work and have been working some pretty long hours.

You asked how I define Sainthood. Thankfully, I don't have to define it for that has already been taken care of. Though we share common points because we both believe that the typical practicing Christian can be referred to as a saint, as attested to in scripture, my understanding is a bit broader.

The way I understand it is that Saints, generally speaking, are those individuals who follow Jesus Christ and live their lives according to his teaching. Catholics, nevertheless, also use the word narrowly to refer to particularly holy men and women who, through extraordinary lives of virtue, have already entered Heaven.

The word "saint" literally means "holy," and, in the New Testament, "saint" referred to all who believed in Jesus Christ and followed his teachings. Yes, Paul did often addressed his epistles to "the saints" of a particular city as in Ephesians 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 1:1. Also, Acts 9:2, talks about Peter going to visit the saints in Lydda. The assumption was that those who followed Christ had been so transformed that they were now different from other men and women and, thus, should be considered holy.

The thing is Don, very early on, the meaning of the word began to change. As Christianity started spreading, it became clear that some Christians lived lives of extraordinary, or heroic, virtue. While most Christians struggled to live out the gospel of Christ, some people were renowned examples of the moral virtues, and they easily practiced the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity.

The word "saint" consequently became more narrowly applied to such people, who were venerated after their deaths as saints, generally by the members of their local congregations and Christians in the region where they lived, because they were familiar with that person’s love of God, moral conduct, and good deeds. In time, the Catholic Church created a process called "canonization," so that such venerable people could be recognized as saints by all Christians everywhere throughout the world.

Two ways to be honored with the respect of "sainthood" are being Canonized and the other is to be Acclaimed.
Most of the saints whom Catholics refer to by that title, (for instance, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton), have gone through the process of canonization. Others, such as St. Peter and St. Paul, received the designation through acclamation, or the universal recognition of their holiness.

Catholics believe that both types of saints (canonized and acclaimed) are already in Heaven and their lives are held up to Christians still struggling here on earth as examples to be imitated.

The word saint still means the same today as it did then Robert. You and I are saints. Some saints live far more virtuous lives than I or perhaps you, and are simply recognized by the Catholic Church as examples for the rest of us to aspire to.


peace

Then why does the Catholic Church declare one to be a saint long after death and only if they have a confirmed miracle? I'm sorry but the publicly reported practice does not match what you say.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

The bottom line is this: It is God's Word that tells me that anyone who has obeyed the Word and been added to the church of Christ...His body...is a saint.

Man can try to define whatever he wants, but God's Word ends any discussion on the matter.

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Thanks for the response Peace.

What you shared is just what I was taught when I was in the Catholic Church. I remember the teachings on some of my favorite Saints when I attended CCD classes at Saint Monica's Church in San Antonio. It is also where I received my Confirmation. I used to enjoy hearing about the way they lived and the hope they brought to those they came in contact with.

I asked you three questions and you only answered one of them. I asked you to you define "sainthood" and you said first that it is the same as the Bible defines it- a child of God. This we agree on. But the second definition you gave is almost right out of the Catholic Encyclopedia. That second definition can not be supported with scripture (you agree with this because you provided none) because it is man made.

You have yet to answer my two other questions... show with BCV (book, chapter, verse) where the Canonization process is taught in the Bible. Please show where each step is taught. You do know the steps of canonization don't you? Please show with BCV where these steps are taught in scripture.

My third question that you did not answer was what is the ISBN number of the Bible you are using.

I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for answering these questions.

A fellow Catholic...
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Don, at what age did you leave the Catholic Church? Did you leave and go directly to a Protestant group or did you go for some time without God as part of your life. Just curious.

I notice that Robert, one of the teachers, in a couple of post above, without really knowing me, has condemned me to Hell if I don't see it his way. Do you agree with that?

Brothers and sisters, I'm not here to argue or convert. I just like reading what you all are talking about. Once, when asked to debate Catholic theology on this forum....well let's just say that my origional objection to doing so on a forum such as this turned out to be right, meaning that this is not the proper place for such discussions because some members get sort of wound up.

Moving on, you want me to show you BCV concerning the Catholic Church's list making of extremely holy persons and of course I cannot. This is obviously something that Catholics feel the Church has authority to do.

Can you show me BCV why organ music in a church is bad?

peace

Sorry friends but I have many bibles, some dating back into the 1800's. All of by bibles are older than 1966 which I believe is when the ISBN system came about.

Have I answered your questions?

Peace,

I'm coming in a bit late, so if this has been asked, please forgive me.

From where do you understand that we have authority to do things in religion? This isn't a trick question; I really do want to know your thoughts on this. I promise not to "gig" you on this based on your response.

Hi Joe,

I don't want to open up a powder keg with some on this forum but will answer you question and we'll leave it at that.

Basically, Catholics believe that the Church is the authority for the Christian and that her apostolic teachings carry equal weight to her book, the bible. Neither can cancel each other out. Catholics believe that the Church was given authority by Christ who is the head of the Church. Christ having established his Church then put men in charge of his Church to feed and tend his sheep in his earthly absence.

That’s a quick answer but like I said, I’m not here to debate it so thanks for not gigging me Joe.

Not a problem my friend. Please provided the imprimatur number.

Thanks,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Brother Rob was right in suggesting that we keep things on track. Seeing that we have been slightly diverted i will offer a few responses. I apologize for the delay as I have been on vacation this week.


Hi Peace,

Let me offer the following answers. Thank you for taking the time to read this thread.

20 years old

I have never been a part of a Protestant group. Denominations are not taught in the Bible and are sinful. Matthew 15:13 But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

As for the second part of your question...I did for a while. You see, the same verse that condemns Protestant groups condemns the Catholic Church. So for a time I was without God. It was the time I spent in a man made religion- the Catholic Church.

You see Peace, if the Catholic Church was the Church taught in the New Testament then it's teachings and practices would match those of the New Testament. One who studies the error of the Catholic Church will find that their teachings are not found in the pages of scripture. For example

Peace, my friend, please provide BCV for the following:

The papacy...

Holding Up Mary as a source of worship....

Praying to Mary.....

The immaculate conception of Mary...

Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix...

Church tradition as being equal with scripture and thus overriding scripture...

Infant baptism and cobnfirmation...

The selling of indulgences....

If the Catholic Church is the Church of the new testament then it will have the same teachings as the Church we read about in Scripture. Please support the above practices of the Catholic Church with book, chapter and verse.

You see my friend, the Bible teaches that scripture is to be the source for all that we do 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;" Paul makes it clear that the Bible is to be our guide.

Peter confirms this in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is {a matter} of one's own interpretation,for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

The apostle Paul goes on to defend the teaching of the first century Church when he says in Galatians 1:6-11 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Paul can say these words because the doctrine of the New Testament was not only known but past on to others 2 Timothy 1:13 "Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus."

Yet, if you notice my friend, not one of the catholic doctrines mentioned about can be "passed on" or "held to" because they are not found in the Bible. They are as Paul said. "another gospel".

What I want for you my friend is to come to learn the scriptures and in doing so be obedient to them. That's it! Paul says in Romans 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


I agree with Brother Robert that all those who are outside of Christ will be lost on the day of judgment. The question then becomes..."How does one get in Christ?" Peace, how does one get in Christ? Please share with us BCV showing how this is done. I believe based on what the Bible teaches (I will wait for your answer before I respond) that Catholics are not "in Christ" so therefore if they do not become obedient to the scriptures and what is required for salvation (again, what is required my friend?) they will be found to be outside of Christ on the great day of judgment.

All we want is to open our Bible and be taught by God's word. That is why we ask for BCV in all that is said and taught. As mentioned above: 2 Timothy 3:16

And this is at the heart of the error in the Catholic Church. They can not support what is taught with the Bible.

yes.... Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. When God commands something to be done he excludes all else from being done. God's command is that we sing (vocal) and that we make melody in our heart. There are other threads on this site where this issue has been taught.

I hope these answers have helped you. We are here to study with you and hope that you will grow and learn from your time here. By the way you write and some of the questions you have made you appear to me to be a Lay Ecclesial Minister. perhaps serving in the role as a campus minister? What office, if any, do you hold in the Church?

Kindly,
Don

P.S.
You did not address me as a fellow Catholic, why not? I have not been excommunicated by the Holy Father. It may interest you to know that I grew up on the campus of Mount Saint Mary's College. My Uncle was the Dean of student services and my father worked as a painter in the maintenance department. Have you ever made a trip to the Grotto of Our Lady of Lourdes? It is one of the National Shrines in our Nation. It is literally in the side of a mountain. I also used to attend daily mass at San Fernando Cathedral in San Antonio, Texas. They had a weekday mass at Noon every day. They were also one the few places a Catholic could have the Sacrament of Confession everyday.

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org