Deceased Christians Praying To God - Page 2 - Christian Forum - Bible Forum - Christian Religion Bible Study Forum

broSonnie · #26 (**permalink**) 01-18-08, 10:02 AM

More from Denton:

Quote:

HOW CAN "PARADISE" BE USED BOTH IN REFERENCE TO HEAVEN ITSELF ("THE THIRD
HEAVEN") AND TO THE HADEAN RESTING PLACE OF THE SOULS OF THE SAINTS (2 Cor. 12:2-4;
Luke 23:43; John 20:17)?
"Paradise" has to do with a garden or park that is filled with great blessing. Thus, the original Paradise, the Garden
of Eden, was the residence of the sinless Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:28). Eden, therefore, is "Paradise Lost" because of
man's sin. The term "Paradise," therefore, became a metaphor. The meaning of "paradise" sets forth the quality or
state of the existence of things. Such is true whether it refers to the place of rest for the departed spirits of the
righteous or the ultimate eternal place of rest of the resurrected and glorified bodies of the faithful in Heaven (the
final abode of the saved).
Being a metaphor, the meaning of "Paradise" must be determined by the context. Hence, to be in the "Paradise" of
the Hadean world is to have escaped the flesh and all that it involves. To such blessed people there is no more battle
against evil. But the ultimate usage of "Paradise" is employed in Rev. 2:7, where it has reference to the final and
eternal abode of the saved. In this description, the spirits of the faithful are clothed in their resurrected and glorified
bodies. On the Day of Judgment they had been rewarded for their faithfulness according to their works. Now they
are busy in their service to God on a new earth under new heavens where there is no Satan to tempt and none of the
resulting woeful consequences of sin. God's will is done to perfection and saints "... eat of the tree of life, which is in
the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7); thus, the ultimate "Paradise Regained" and forever restored.
CONCLUSION
May we, as students of the Word of God, never grow weary of studying, searching, and examining the Scriptures,
including those passages that are difficult to understand.

Quote:

Paul explained that he was caught up. The word [@harpazo] means "to snatch or catch away ... This verb conveys
the idea of force suddenly exercised ..."<5> The idea of being snatched or caught away is used in reference to Philip
(Acts 8:39), saints at the second appearing of Jesus (1 Thess. 4:17), and the man child (Rev. 12:5).
Paul further said that he was caught up "even to" the third heaven. Some use this to say that Paul was describing a
place different from that to which he referred in 2 Cor. 12:3. Halley expressed it:
"Some think Paradise and Third Heaven are synonymous terms for the Abode of God. But Into one, Even To the other, make it appear that
they are two distinct places. Inasmuch as Jesus passed Immediately into Paradise, Paradise is thought to be the abode of disembodied spirits
between Death and Resurrection. The Third Heaven is thought to be the Final Abode of the redeemed in their Resurrection Bodies; an
existence more glorious than Paradise, as Paradise is more glorious than earthly existence."<6>
It is the judgment of this writer that Paul was simply saying that he was caught up to the third heaven or into the
third heaven. Similar language is used in Mark 14:54 where Peter was said to have gone "even within, into the court
of the high priest." This means that he went into the court itself. Though different prepositions are used in 2 Cor.
12:2 and 2 Cor. 12:3, it seems that Paul was saying the same thing.
Paul said he went "to the third heaven." While some hold to the concept of seven heavens, it seems that the idea of
Paul was that of three heavens: (1) the atmosphere where the birds fly; (2) the heaven where the sun, moon and stars
dwell; 13) the dwelling place of God. "Third heaven" is mentioned only here in the New Testament. Eerdmans
maintains that "Third heaven is a Jewish expression meaning to be actually in the presence of God."<7> Moses
wrote that "unto Jehovah thy God belongeth heaven and the heaven of heavens" (Deut. 10:14). The Psalmist
exhorted: "Praise him, ye heaven of heavens, And ye waters that are above the heavens" (Ps. 148:4). Paul said,
further, that "He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens" (Eph. 4:10). The Hebrews
writer said that Jesus "passed through the heavens" (Heb. 4:14).
While we do not know all that Paul knew about this subject, we do know that going to the "third heaven" was
enough to establish Paul's apostolic authority for honest inquirers.

broSonnie · #27 (**permalink**) 01-18-08, 10:08 AM

lol... I say it's not exhaustive because it is merely from one man's point of view. The part from Corinthians is another man's point of view on that passage.

D. White · #28 (**permalink**) 03-23-08, 12:20 AM

Thre is only one that can be the mediator between us and God and we all should know who that one Man is, right? Then how can one that is gone on plead for us?

Peace · #29 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Thre is only one that can be the mediator between us and God and we all should know who that one Man is, right? Then how can one that is gone on plead for us?

Maybe the pleading on our behalf is to Jesus, who then mediates to God. Jesus is not bypassed in this scenario.

D. White · #30 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

Maybe the pleading on our behalf is to Jesus, who then mediates to God. Jesus is not bypassed in this scenario.

If that is the case, then you have ADDED someone else to the equation...

Bible states this: us - Christ - God (fact = sure)

Man states this (by your statement above): us - dead ones - Christ - God (maybe = not sure)

...if the bottom is true, please provide scripture proof.

Laura · #31 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminator

If that is the case, then you have ADDED someone else to the equation...

Bible states this: us - Christ - God (fact = sure)

Man states this (by your statement above): us - dead ones - Christ - God (maybe = not sure)

...if the bottom is true, please provide scripture proof.

I'm not trying to say that the deceased can pray, so please do not misunderstand. BUT, if only WE can plead our case to God through Christ, then why are we told to pray for one another? The fact is that Christians CAN plead for one another. Else, when someone comes forward repenting of sin, we should keep quiet and let them pray for themselves.

On second thought, did you mean "living Christians" when you said "us"???

Steven Rasberry · #32 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francisdesales

Revelation given to mankind was incomplete until Christ came to fulfill the Law. Before that time, the Bible, the Old Testament, often gave incomplete understanding of what God taught. Thus, references to Ecclesiasticles will not do in the New Covenant, because God, Christ, taught us that there IS life after death. Ecclesiasticles does not.

What are you talking about? I understand what you are saying but not in this context. No one said we are not alive on the other side in paradise.

I think you are building your assumptions upon this verse:

Luke 15:7
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

We have to take the rest of the verses in the bible along with this one to understand it. For one, please notice that it says, heaven, not paradise. Who is in heaven presently?

Jesus similarly gave us a parable about Lazarus and the rich man. From that parable, it appears that those in the next world ARE INDEED aware of what is happening in this world. The rich man even asks to be sent to his family to convince them of the truth of the afterlife!!!!

Being aware of one's past life, those left in the flesh and present state of torment does not mean they are watching us on earth.

God is a God of the Living, not of the Dead, as Jesus told the Pharisees. As I have said before, the Greek of the Transfiguration stories tells us that the "dead" prophets, Moses and Elijah, were MADE visible - they were already there, but now the three apostles could see them physically. Thus, the writer of the Gospels seems to disagree with your interpretation.

Again, no one here is saying that dead people are not alive in the spirit. Only that they do not take part in our daily life. Moses and Elijah were to be with Jesus to show He was to be accepted along with the Law of Moses and the Prophets but afterwords, God said, "Hear ye Him", making it very clear that Jesus was "The One" they needed to follow and was superior to Moses or the Prophets. This has nothing to do with human spirits taking part in worldly activities.

On the other hand, the angels are.

Heb 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[a]

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation

It certainly can be a metaphorical "looking down" upon Christians who run the race, as in the ancient games that the author alludes to. It can also mean they are indeed LITERALLY looking down upon us. From this verse alone, we are not able to detect what the author ACTUALLY meant. Thus, while I agree that one should not take this verse alone and claim "the saints in the next life are looking at us literally", I ALSO agree that we CANNOT dismiss this possibility. I think it is important not to automatically presume our theology into the verse without exploration.

Considering the beliefs of the ancient Christians of THAT time, it would appear, both in writing and in practice, that they DID BELIEVE they were being watched, cheered on, prayed for, and so forth - as if the "dead" CONTINUED to participate in building up the Body. Considering that even DEATH does not separate us from Christ, it is perfectly feasible, although we cannot see them, to believe they are present to us.

Yes, watched by God and the angles, as well as satan and those other fallen angels/spirits but nothing says that people's souls are sitting around watching us like a show on a big screen TV, if they did, just imagine the picture quality...it must make blue ray look cheap.

With that being said, human spirits are in death (paradise or torment), they are not in heaven or the lake of fire either, yet. That comes later. Their life is over, the destiny is determined by their life's activities so they are in one of the two places and will not move into heaven and the lake of fire until after the pronouncement of judgment by God.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:4
how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Regards

Thank you for your thoughts and I look forward to hearing from your response.

Steven Rasberry · #33 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

Maybe the pleading on our behalf is to Jesus, who then mediates to God. Jesus is not bypassed in this scenario.

Jesus mediates for our sin. Through Him we approach God, without Him, we are toast. In Christ we all petition God for each other (while in the flesh), THROUGH Jesus. None of us can approach the Father without the Son.

We are not being mediators for the sin of others when we pray for them. We are carrying for our brethren's soul enough to go to God about him, through Jesus.

Romans 15:30
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me,

Philippians 1:19
For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Peace · #34 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

Thank you for your thoughts and I look forward to hearing from your response.

Sorry Steven, but you won't be hearing from FrancisDesales. He was banned from this forum because he did not think like the admin/s.

Peace · #35 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 09:57 PM

Obviously it is not wrong for Christians to pray to our Savior on behalf of fellow Christians. I just don't believe that deceased Christians are dead.

Laura · #36 (**permalink**) 03-24-08, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

Obviously it is not wrong for Christians to pray to our Savior on behalf of fellow Christians. I just don't believe that deceased Christians are dead.

Well, they certainly aren't like "dead dog rover... dead all over". They have eternal spirits and exist elsewhere, but they are dead from the earthly perspective in that they will not return here. We know they are not yet with the Father, yet their fate is sealed. There is very little in the scriptures about what happens beyond this life. It's not even clear that the Father hears the prayers of those who have gone before. We know He heard their prayers while they remained here. I think if knowing all the details of the afterlife were that important, then God would have told us. Instead, He told us what we need to do to receive a favorable afterlife. I'd much rather focus on that and worry about the rest when I can rest.

Peace · #37 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura

Well, they certainly aren't like "dead dog rover... dead all over".

I do not feel they are dead at all.

MOST Christians petition the intercession of the saints. The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3 - At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.

Rom 15:30 - ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.

Jam 5:14 - Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord

Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need.

Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.

John 10:38 - ...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.

John 14:10-11- Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."

John 1:3 - What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.

John 17:11 - And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:21-22 - ... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly:

1 Cor 13:12 - At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

RJ Mac · #38 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 11:20 AM

Bro. Sonnie:

Sorry I took so long to get back to you on the lengthy post. The only thing I got from it was that Leupold and Lenski disagreed on what captivity meant. The lecturer finishes I believe stating that captivity is the power of sin. My understanding is simply it was where righteous remained until the power was destroyed by the blood and now the gates of hades could not keep the Lord's church in hades but that captivity as it was seen, was now taken to heaven as we see in Eph.4:8; Heb.12:22ff and Rev.20:4-6. Saints in heaven.

The article on third heaven concludes it was the presence of God, I disagree with some who say Paul was saying third heaven and paradise were in two separate places, they are now in the same location. Paradise was created by God as a dwelling place for His special people Gen.2,3; It was taken from man because of sin, lost in the flood, turns up in hades, Lk.23:43; the special place for God's people, Abraham's bosom, and now with Paul we find paradise in the third heaven, 2Cor.12:2-4 the presence of God, Heaven, where God's people are today. Unless you may want that there are more than one paradise at any one time?

Thanks for the articles.

RJ Mac

Laura · #39 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

I do not feel they are dead at all.

It's not really a matter of what we feel, it's a matter of what the Bible teaches. Paul, under inspiration in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that on the day of judgment, all of the dead who are in Christ shall arise. This clearly teaches that the saints who have gone before us are dead physically. They are not, however, dead spiritually because those "in Christ" are not dead but rather alive in Christ.

RJ Mac · #40 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 01:43 PM

Peace-be-with-you:

You stated the saints who are in heaven can pray for us. I believe they can and do pray for the church as we see in Rev.6:9-11; Now note they are asking concerning what they already know, the persecution the church is suffering under. In Lk.16 the rich man asks on behalf of his brothers who are still alive. But they ask because of what they know not because anyone has asked them to pray for them. Our intercessor is Christ, this is the one we pray to and no one else. 1Tim.2:5;

Many do petition the saints to pray for them, but there is no scripture that tells us to do so. We are only to pray to God as we see in Rev.22:8,9 John worshiping the angel is informed by the angel that he is only a fellow worker, not to be worshiped, he has no authority except that given to him from God.
Likewise Peter refuses worship from Cornelius in Ac.10:25,26; Peter states he is just a man.

We are to pray to the one who can speak to the Father on our behalf, Christ and Christ only. Col.3:17; To pray to saints is to believe God honors one man above another and that is not true. To think God would listen to Bill instead of me shows God is partial. God shows no partiality Ac.10:34; Rom.2:11; Gal.2;6; Eph.6:9;

The dead are with Christ and praying for the church, not knowing anything that is happening on earth, they are waiting for the judgment day when all will be known and we shall spend eternity with Christ. So to pray to the saints is not only folly but a waste of time for they cannot hear.

RJ Mac

Steven Rasberry · #41 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

I do not feel they are dead at all.

MOST Christians petition the intercession of the saints. The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.

Col 4:3 - At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.

Rom 15:30 - ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.

Jam 5:14 - Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord

Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need.

Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.

It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.

John 10:38 - ...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.

John 14:10-11- Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."

John 1:3 - What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.

John 17:11 - And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:21-22 - ... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly:

1 Cor 13:12 - At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Praying for someone is not the same as taking that person's place before God, a place only Christ can do. Although He was in the flesh and was in every way like us, He had no sin.

If you can, please show a scripture where we can take Jesus' place.

David prayed that his son would not die and God decided to let the baby die. He was praying for the baby to live, for the baby but he has no authority but only a submissive heart seeking God's grace. To go beyond this level of petition is not possible for a human except through Christ.

Paul petitioned that everyone pray through Christ and in the love of the Spirit for him. Yes, they are praying for Paul but not taking Christ's place in the process. That is the difference here.

Romans 15:30
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me,

2 Samuel 12:16 and 22-23

16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground.

22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD[a] will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

Peace · #42 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

Praying for someone is not the same as taking that person's place before God, a place only Christ can do. Although He was in the flesh and was in every way like us, He had no sin.

If you can, please show a scripture where we can take Jesus' place.

I did not say anything about replacing Christ as the mediator. I said that I believe that Christians in heaven can pray to Christ on our behalf as well or better than Christians on earth.

Steven Rasberry · #43 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you

I did not say anything about replacing Christ as the mediator. I said that I believe that Christians in heaven can pray to Christ on our behalf as well or better than Christians on earth.

Christ is the one in heaven and mediates, not human souls. He goes to the Father for us since He is at His right hand. Why would the dead need to be praying if Christ is the high priest and is before God, the Father's very presence.

By the way, the dead are not in heaven, the final place after judgment, but presently in paradise, pre judgement.

The dead do not pray...They are dead and concerned either about nothing because their faith is fulfilled and they are in paradise and comforted by God or they are in torment awaiting judgment and the lake of fire.

You need to show proof that the human dead souls are praying for us. Scriptures with context would be appreciated please.

broSonnie · #44 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 06:21 PM

How are we to consider the following?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

BVidlar · #45 (**permalink**) 03-25-08, 08:16 PM

It’s not that the dead don't know nothing or this would violate what is taught in (Luke 16:19-31) about the rich man and Lazarus. What the dead know nothing about is verse 6, “under the sun” or on earth.