I've got a business aquantance and friend who I eat lunch with about once a month. For the last couple of years we seem to get into these long winded topics on religion. Of course I've been sharing with him each and every time... planting the seed so to speak. We get along great and carry on some really good conversations... sadly it is so interesting to hear his beliefs and theorys.

Here's the deal... he believes in Universalism based on various secular books and material he has read over the years. It really does little good to discuss what the Bible says because he believes in only parts of it. He and his wife attend a Catholic Church but he will tell you he does not agree with most of what the Catholics believe. He will also tell you that he believes in a little bit of all religions and that means other than Christianity. He definitely believes there is a God. He believes the Holy Spirit is in everyone, good or bad. He believes there was a Jesus who died for everyones sins.

What he says of course is that he believes God loves everyone so much that He could never punish anyone eternally as the Bible suggests. He tells me he has a hard time believing that God really destroyed anyone in the Old Testament days. He thinks people wrote all the negative events to place fear in people although these people knew it would not really happen. He says since God loves us so much and that since we are His children that He would never punish us eternally. He asked me if I could ever punish my children for eternity. Which I couldn't, but I'm not God either.

There's lots more he says, but as you can imagine, he has all the basic beliefs of universalism.

Is there any way to reach these types since he refuses to believe all of the scriptures?

Are there good questions to ask that might get him really thinking? I realize I'll probably always be grasping at straws with him, but we will continue to see each other due to business and I want to continue to plant the seed in hopes that it will take root one day. We get along great and converse well, so no issues there. He laughs at me and I laugh at him, although it ain't so funny really.

Any hope is appreciated.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Sonnie, it sounds like you need to prove to him that the whole Bible is inspired of God (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). It appears as though he believes some of it, but with the Bible it is all or nothing. It claims to be from God, and if it had teachings that were not true (as he seems to believe), then it would not be from God, and basically the whole thing would need to be discarded!

Here is one article that is along those lines:
If It's Just a Good Book, Then It's Not God's Book (by Eric Lyons)
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1618

If I were you, I would start amassing a pile of proof for the inspiration of the Bible, and I would take that approach with him. Topics such as Predictive Prophecy, Messianic Prophecy, Scientific Foreknowledge in the Bible, Historical Accuracy, Unity of the Bible, Archaeological Verification of the Bible, etc. would be enough to convince any objective person.

Eric Lyons has also written two books on alleged contradictions in the Bible, which I would recommend when dealing with skeptics: (The Anvil Rings, Vol. 1 and 2). I know you already have a lot of resources, such as links to Christian Evidences web sites, but if I can help in any other way let me know.

Jason Hilburn

Sonnie,

Another thought to try and plant, is that the only things we know of God's Will, come through the Bible. Without it, all we can know (through the creation) is that there is a God. If that is agreed, then the Bible is either the word of God or not...If it is, then God has revealed that he is a "just" God that not only "will", but "must" recompense good with good and evil with evil. Also, if it is, then he has given us great examples of His love as well as His punishments. If it is, we must accept it in it's entirety:
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
...and that we will be judged as such:
John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

If the Bible is not God's Word.....then we can know nothing.

But it is either one way or another.

__________________
May God help and keep us all,
Gregg A. Parker

The saint exhorts Christians to prove all things :-

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

On checking the meaning of the word for 'eternal' one discovers that 'aionios' refers to an age, an aeon [from which we get this word]... now an age may be a very long time and seem like eternity, but it simply is not eternity , so it is a matter of mistranslation .

Again ,the word translated 'damnation' does not mean pre-judgment, but simply 'judgment' ... so men are not judged in this world but in the next , and Jesus himself reveals that in the next world men are judged by works , not grace , and all are resurrected from hell, none left there :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There are thus serious questions to be answered here about what the original scripture means , and the bible elsewhere reveals the true meaning ,so that we can be sure, for instance :-

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is the saviour of all men then, but the few who believe in this wold take the narrow way [Matt 7:14] ... what then of those who are destroyed in death who take the broad way? Again Jesus himself informs us that the many are saved too [Rev 7:9-10] so whocan doubt all these scriptures and that the translation of some words in some translations is not quite representng the truth .

Please square what you say with what Jesus said in Mark 9:42-48.

I am no Greek Scholar but the prevailing definitions I found for the word the English word "eternal" αἰώνιος (aiōnios) is that of "everlasting" "without beginning or end" "never ending" "never to cease"

If you claim "eternal" only means age what do you do with Matt. 25:46?

__________________
John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

okay? :-)

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was "unquenchable", yet it went out by itself when it had consumed all ... unquenchable does not imply never-ending.

The worms that consume dead bodies never die because they grow up to be flies which lay eggs which hatch into new worms , it is a cycle within nature ,but it does not mean that individual worms do not die, nor that the species cannot become extinct .

As the bible warns, beware of traditions of men ... here are some sites addressing the issue :-

http://www.word-gems.com/time.aionios.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/Time_12.html

http://becomingone.org/nm/nm7.htm

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx74.htm

Life and punishment indeed go on until the end of time , the end of the ages , but modern Physics and the scripture both agree that time is finite ,that Newton was mistaken in theorising an infinity of time.

Since our unverse, space-time, was created , clearly there is no time or space except by creation , thus God is beyond space and time [something we find hard to visualise because we have no experience of it] , God is thus time-less , without time, because He created it ... again it shows the danger of interpretting scripture within a framework based on theories of men [Newton in this case of the common misconception of time created by him]

The whole of time , from beginning to end, is thus, to God, just a fixed and completely examinable object [making prophecy rather easy for God], only men experience 'passage of time' .

__________________
"He breaks down and it cannot be built again
He shuts up a man
and there can be no opening
He withholds the waters
they dry up
He sends them out
they overturn the earth
With Him is strength and wisdom
the deceived and the deceiver are His
He leads counsellors away spoiled, makes the judges fools "

... according to scripture God has the will to save all , the ability to save all, and none can resist His will which He is determined to carry out ... so why do men doubt that He will save His creation from the evil He enforces upon it ?

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

is it not even irrational to conceive that God could impose evil upon mankind and then punish mankind meaninglessly without end for the evil He created?

Rather is it not that God takes to Himself all responsibility for evil through Jesus Christ ,so sins are justly forgiven of all eventually ?

__________________
"He breaks down and it cannot be built again
He shuts up a man
and there can be no opening
He withholds the waters
they dry up
He sends them out
they overturn the earth
With Him is strength and wisdom
the deceived and the deceiver are His
He leads counsellors away spoiled, makes the judges fools "

Omhi,
How is the inspired Word of God a tradition of man? Are you saying you that what you speak is truth and the inspired Truth is a lie? When the greek and hebrew are given from the textus receptus, that is it my friend.

I know you feel strongly about what you believe but it is just not there. Sorry to break your bubble but the lake of fire is forever, which means foreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever...and ever...

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the LORD endures forever.” Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

aiōn
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

2) the worlds, universe

3) period of time, age

Look at the instances where this word is used and in the context.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/l...ngs=G165&t=kjv

Wow, so in Matthew 25:46 are you saying that heaven is temporary? Will we all cease to exist?

Matthew 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Matthew 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal"

Rev. 20:10-15:

__________________
John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

It is not I , but Jesus, the prophets and the saints in the scripture ,who describe the three heavens ,but only two earths accompanying the first two heavens... so indeed God says that the first heaven and earth will flee away and God will resurrect all sinners to the new earth and heavens :-

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

- and the new (second) earth is a righteous place where men can thus please God and be saved by works after resurrection of all men from hell :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 20:13 death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

- It is Paul who talks of the third heaven, the paradise of God, the garden [where Adam was taken ,as was Enoch] :-

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven...
4 How that he was caught up into paradise...

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

- God undertakes to resurrect all men from hell, first the just 9saints= at Jesus' return (the few who find the narrow way of sainthood in this life - Matt 7:14] , but later the many are saved [Rev 7:9-10] who come to Jesus by the broad way through destruction in death [and the end of this earth] only by good works before judgment day in the new earth AFTER the second resurrection (after the millenium then) :-

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

__________________
"He breaks down and it cannot be built again
He shuts up a man
and there can be no opening
He withholds the waters
they dry up
He sends them out
they overturn the earth
With Him is strength and wisdom
the deceived and the deceiver are His
He leads counsellors away spoiled, makes the judges fools "

I have looked long and hard at the tradition of men about this which you quote, and the scripture TAKEN AS A WHOLE does not support it , Jesus and the saints warned us that the tradition of men is false and that at this time religion would be fallen away from the truth ... there are some translations which reflect this truth ,some which reflect tradition of men , for instance Rotherham's Emphasised Bible :-

1 Peter 1:25 But the declaration of the Lord age-abidingly remaineth; And, this, is a declaration which in the joyful message hath been announced unto you.

Thus quoting a source of meaning which simply follows the tradition of men does not prove the point at all [in the way that we are exhorted to do]

Again, consider if it is loving , or even meaningful to torment someone endlessly for evil which God admits that He created ... this truly is a senseless misrepresentation of God's word used to scare people down the centuries who had not the wits , nor access to the scripture to see through this deception ... we have the scripture as a whole to read and understand that God takes responsibility for creating evil upon Himself through Jesus, so that all sinners will be saved because they had no chance against Satan before all being baptised of the holy spirit [Joel 2:28] ...

Clearly all men do NOT YET receive baptism of teh spirit to know all truth [John 16:13] before death, thus god will baptise all sinners of thsi earth after resurrection to the ne3w earth kingdom of God ... with a view to men living righteously in the new earth and being redeemed at jusdgment day ... as Jesus says, the MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] but after the few who go by the narrow way [Matt 7:14]

Note it well then, that Jesus himself says that the many are saved [who go by the broad way] , why would you not believe Jesus rather than tradition of men ???

__________________
"He breaks down and it cannot be built again
He shuts up a man
and there can be no opening
He withholds the waters
they dry up
He sends them out
they overturn the earth
With Him is strength and wisdom
the deceived and the deceiver are His
He leads counsellors away spoiled, makes the judges fools "

Amen! Robert

If you do not want to accept the Word, then the Word cannot help you, which is sad because without the Word you know nothing of God's intimate thoughts or desire for us.

You have rejected what the good brethren gave you in the actual language from the Word of God and it is very very sad you have rejected it, esp since you seem to believe you love the Lord, Jeremiah 8:9.

No matter how long you study with the corrupted glasses you wear and view the scriptures through you will be deceived. How can you be deceived? Well, it is because there is some logic behind all things that are deceptive.

The Word says one thing and you say another, I have no choice but to HAVE to follow what God says very clearly, both Old Testament and New, that damnation is forever. NOW is the time for grace, to seek and save the lost, otherwise, why be looking? Why die for the lost? Why did Jesus give up everything for us to save us from this terrible torment if it were only temporary and why would He way it is forever, then it not be? No amount of explaining the word aion will change the meaning. Notice in Revelation 20, it says ever, and ever, TWICE, not temporary and a little bit more.

The scriptures have been presented up to this point and you need to go back and look into them again, no matter how many prayers, research or time you have spent, because you have missed much an have been deceived by the dark one, to the point that you are here teaching the perspective of satan himself, which is the master of twisting scripture. satan quoted scripture to Jesus when tempting Him and yes, even the usage of the scripture was not 100% false but his usage of it and ulterior motive was.

All of you that hold to such a teaching of this are doing the will, not of THE FATHER but of your father, so long as you love this lie over the Truth. There are NUMEROUS contextual contexts to refer to and this is an elementary teaching. The worst thing about this teaching is that it causes people to be damned because they think, oh I can sin some in my life now because I eventually can get into heaven anyway after a bit of time in torment/lake of fire, Romans 6:1-3.

John 8:30-32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.

Romans 6:1-3
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is Rev. 20:10 in the original language.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...version=KJV#10

2 Peter 3:15-17
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

James 1:15-17
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

John 8:43-45
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

While brother Rotherham was a respected preacher in the late 1800's his translation of the scriptures is not without it's problems. The most notable having been mentioned here- his use of "Lord Age-abiding" or as he does in John 3:16 "Life-age abiding" There is simply no support, based on the Greek usage of the word aiōnios, to conclude a "temporary period of time" or a "time measured separate and apart by God". The word carries the meaning of "never ending, eternal".

Based on the proper usage of this word your argument for Hell being a temporary period of time is simply not supported. Your argument is not new however, it has its roots (as I suspect you do as well) in those who hold to annihilationism. That doctrine of belief has been soundly refuted and need to be rehashed here.

The bottom line according to scripture is that there will be those who live with the Godhead forever and those who will live in hell forever. Each group is where they are because they chose to be there. Did not Joshua declare "Choose this day whom you will serve...." (Joshua 24:15)

I can assure you that your thoughts on aiōnios being a temporary period of time will not find any support on this site.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

More than will not, it CANNOT. Our Lord forbids His Word be twisted. It is by this Word, all will be judged.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

In other words, he doesn't really believe what the Bible says. If God were really this way, the Bible, from Genesis to Maps, would be entirely unnecessary. The Bible, by its very existence, and from which your friend gets all of his ideas about God, proves that God is more than a cosmic Santa without the bad list.

Amen. Why send Jesus? Why go to such lengths? I have heard it said it was to keep those that were in this temporary torment from having to go through it because it was so bad, but this means there is Hope though at the end of the tunnel.

That would make Eph 2 false since all people for all time have hope, regardless if they are satan himself, there is hope that after a period, they would be released. That is not what the scriptures say.

Ephesians 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

What he tells me is that he believes part of it, but also believes like the Catholics, that other secular books are needed for life. So in essence, he really does not believe the Bible as a whole from front to back.

I remember once that he told me he had a problem with believing God would really do all the things He did in the OT as far as killing or having killed the thousands He did kill, despite those killed being evil.

I actually have not spoken with him in several months. He changed his work and has not been able to come around as much as he use to. He was always one of those tough ones to get through to... no matter what I said, he just had a hard time accepting it as truth.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie