Will God Judge Us Merely By What We Believe? - Page 2 - Christian Forum - Bible Forum - Christian Religion Bible Study Forum

Don Gelles · #26 (**permalink**) 09-04-08, 11:21 AM

Will God Judge Us Merely By What We Believe?

John 12:48

David Hersey · #27 (**permalink**) 09-10-08, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Gelles

Will God Judge Us Merely By What We Believe?

Even the devils believe and tremble

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Lee Parish · #28 (**permalink**) 10-09-08, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Very good. I Love Jesus and his teachings. Regardless of if he is an historical character or simply a fable. There are a great many moral teachings in his words (can someone say Thomas Jefferson?)

Far too often I see the "faith alone" verses quoted. And granted, one can draw that out from verse quoting. However, there are far many more verses and passages that talk about how we should live and treat others.

It's good to see some of those explored and quoted here....

John 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins"

Unless we believe that Christ is the Messiah. God in the flesh we will die in our sins. How can you love Him if you don't believe that He IS? Jesus is not merely an historical character, and He certainly is not a fable. One must come to the conclusion that Jesus is who He said He Is or that He is a liar.

Steven Rasberry · #29 (**permalink**) 10-09-08, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abdullah

Very good. I Love Jesus and his teachings. Regardless of if he is an historical character or simply a fable. There are a great many moral teachings in his words (can someone say Thomas Jefferson?)

Far too often I see the "faith alone" verses quoted. And granted, one can draw that out from verse quoting. However, there are far many more verses and passages that talk about how we should live and treat others.

It's good to see some of those explored and quoted here....

Hi there Abdullah,
Brother Lee is right here but I have to say, I think all you need is some good ol study about Jesus. If you keep studying about Him, I think you will see how Amazing He is, how much Truth He is and He will impact your heart, through the Word, if you let Him but leave you with no other option but to believe, although you have not seen.

John 17:20
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word;

Brycges · #30 (**permalink**) 11-19-08, 09:54 PM

James 1:23-25 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

mountravlr · #31 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 08:44 AM

John 5:22, John 12:48 are both helpful as we consider James 2:14 and James 2:24. And as previously mentioned, Matt. 7:21 is a guide.
I noticed a "faith only" proponent or two. Questions: How is faith not a "work" according to John 6:28-29? And how is baptism not a "working" of God, Col. 2:12? And how does Gal. 5:6 not teach "faith which works by love"?
"Works" of God obeyed by men is always under consideration when the subject is discussed per NT scripture.

Brycges · #32 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 11:25 AM

I've always seen baptism as a work of God, anything God tells us to do and we do it we are doing his work, his will. so if he says, "be baptized" and we do it, we did his work, his will not ours.

Steven Rasberry · #33 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brycges

I've always seen baptism as a work of God, anything God tells us to do and we do it we are doing his work, his will. so if he says, "be baptized" and we do it, we did his work, his will not ours.

Correct..

Ephesians 2:8-11
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

According to this verse, we are "created" to do the works God prepared, not man, but God, that we should do what? Ans. Walk in them.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Brycges · #34 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Rasberry

Correct..

Ephesians 2:8-11
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

According to this verse, we are "created" to do the works God prepared, not man, but God, that we should do what? Ans. Walk in them.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If I may, I want to continue with that scripture you posted 1 John 1:7.

1 John 5:6-8 6 This is He who came by water and blood -- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

John 3:5 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 19:34 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

these scripture are well connected, they are say the same thing and give us another standing of each one of these scripture. that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins is what makes us saved, through His death (doing away with Sin) and resurrection (being made new).

Romans 6:3-4 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Matthew 16:24 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

Baptism is what Matthew 16:24 is talking about.

Matthew 21:25 25 "The baptism of John -- where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?'

what is the answer to this question? Well Christ came to do the Will of the Father, so its from him. John came to prepare the way of the Lord. he baptized just about everyone and in doing that he did the will of the father. so baptism is Gods Will.

so this ties into the topic because those who do not get baptized did not do the will of the father, because they did not believe. Mark 16:16 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Steven Rasberry · #35 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 01:06 PM

To quote bro David, "it'll preach"

ho'adelphos · #36 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 01:16 PM

Good comments thus far by all participants. But it only highlights the central issue of the creeds of men...specifically the protestant creed. I reject every creed of man, including all points of the protestant creed. In this topic Sola Fidelis - Faith Only is the false doctrine under examination. Unfortunately we brethren of the churches of Christ have historically totally failed to see what is actually occuring...by failing to be aware of the wiles and devices of Satan.

Quote:

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

2 Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Satan, beginning in Eden (Genesis 3), has always taken a portion of God's work and twisted and distorted it...it seems that angels, whether faithful or fallen, are unable to originate anything new...they cannot create anything, unlike God. Thus Satan can only take what is originally from God and distort it to his own depraved purposes. This would need to be a topic all its own, but I'll get right to the point and stay within the topic of this thread. Satan has totally distorted this into an unbiblical struggle between faith vs works. In the biblical NT there is no issue or conflict on the matter.

First we'll review the scriptures already posted in this topic that deals directly with the issue.

Quote:

Romans 11:5-6 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 4:2-6; 9:11-32 are part of this context.)

James 2:17-22 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

There are many other scriptures we can cite, but these presented here accurately represent all they have to say on the matter. But don't take my word for it, look them up and see for yourself.

Demons love to get us to chase our tail like some ignorant puppy...that is how they see us...as dumb animals in their eyes they utterly loath us, but greatly enjoy getting us to perform for them like puppets on a string to their amusement. The biblical fact is that the faith vs works issue is a red herring...a straw man...and has no basis in biblical reality. The biblical reality is that Paul is presenting the differences between the works of the OT law and those of the NT

Quote:

Romans 9:32 Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Under the OT law works that were merely mechanical obedience was good enough, but under the NT law of grace that is not enough.

Quote:

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What is the difference between the works under the OT law and those under the NT law of Christ?

Quote:

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Under the OT mikvah (hebrew for baptism = submersion in water) was done repeatedly throughout the year by every Israelite, with women having an addition monthly mikvah added to their burden, and the Levitical priesthood even more often. This was the ritual cleansing used throughout the bible. (As a side note, it is interesting that in hebrew the mem, the first character in mikvah, - every hebrew character has a meaning all its own, like a word-picture - the primary meaning of mem is water, thus water is built into the word mikvah...that too is a topic all its own.)

How is OT mikvah different from NT mikvah/baptism? The above brings me to

Quote:

Romans 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This passage is crucial...here we see the difference. In OT mikvah, only the filth of the flesh is dealt with, requiring the Mosaic animal sacrifices to deal with the internal filth of the soul...but only to roll the debt of sin forward. This was the effect of baptism in the OT. Then John's baptism served as a transition between the Mosaic Covenant and the Covenant in the Blood of Christ. This also solves the issue about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Baptism was typical throughout the OT, but we can point directly to the Baptism of Noah, the Baptism of Moses (in the Red Sea and Jordan River, the Baptism of John in preparation of the coming of the Kingdom of God (sort of like a RSVP), and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit beginning on the Day of Penecost after the resurrection from the grave and ascension of Christ to His throne in Heaven. The baptism described so vividly by Paul in Romans 6 is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, showing what the Holy Spirit does to us while we are being baptised. Thus the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a different waterless baptism that some try to claim (Satan's devices never seem to change).

So, what exactly does this have to do with faith vs works? Everything! Just as the works done under the OT law is different from that under the NT, because the baptism is different. Not externally different, but internally different. Faith Only vs Works Only is false logic ... here is the proof:

Quote:

Romans 6:10-11 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The biblical reality is that the man I was prior to baptism, the sinner, died during baptism, crucified on the very cross of Jesus Christ, where I joined with Him and then rose with Him in a new life, not a life of my own because I am alive only in Christ, thus any work I seem to do, it is not me who is doing it, it is the work of Jesus Christ who lives in me. I am a live only by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord, in that He provided a way for me to die to sin by joining Him on His cross and be alive in Him, and He in me. Whatever work other may see me doing, it is the work of Christ.

Now we come full circle to

Quote:

James 2:17-22 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

What we really believe...that is what we do. Thus, when we are being judged according to our works - if we are genuinely christian, then our works are not our own and we have nothing to worry about - we are being judged for what we believe.

As a final note to this post: this has nothing to do with the fact that sometimes our differences in belief is mostly due to spiritual maturity. We are not judged on our maturity in the faith, unless we deliberately refuse to grow. As a babe in Christ my belief was immature, but grew and self-corrected as I grew and matured.

Don Gelles · #37 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ho'adelphos

The biblical reality is that the man I was prior to baptism, the sinner, died during baptism, crucified on the very cross of Jesus Christ, where I joined with Him and then rose with Him in a new life, not a life of my own because I am alive only in Christ, thus any work I seem to do, it is not me who is doing it, it is the work of Jesus Christ who lives in me. I am a live only by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord, in that He provided a way for me to die to sin by joining Him on His cross and be alive in Him, and He in me. Whatever work other may see me doing, it is the work of Christ.

Yep! this is Paul's point in Romans 6:3-11. The DBR is reenacted in baptism. Unless one dies, is buried and then resurrected- he can not / is not / will not be, a New Testament Christian. Jesus supports this very concept in John 3:5.

Kindly,
Don

Brycges · #38 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 02:07 PM

the Doctrine of Faith only is false, even Satan believes in God, but he is still lost.

Believing inst enough, I knew a man who use to be a preacher but became what he calls "white witch" he believes in God and knows he's doing wrong but hes ok with that... (I know crazy but its true) this man who believes in God is now working for Satan. but according to the Faith only doctrine he is saved?

Sounds to me alot like the Once Saves Always Saved Doctrine

Marianinark · #39 (**permalink**) Yesterday, 02:44 PM

John 3.16 is one of the most misused scriptures in the Bible, by the faith only denominations. The verse says "should not perish, not "will not perish" !!!