Man I love studying the Rapture, it is such an awesome thought that one day we shall be Raptured to be with Christ forever. What a day that will be. Until then, lots of work to do, I know.

Many teach that Jesus will come and take all the Christians with Him to heaven for 7 years, leaving the wicked ones to fend for themselves, the great tribulation, then return and destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom on earth, ruling from Jerusalem for 1,000 yrs then He'll take us off to heaven, I guess. This is the gist, with many minor scenario changes depending on your take of certain texts.

But wait what does the Bible teach about the Rapture. I know the church says it won't happen, it doesn't exist in the Bible. But I will contend it does exist and it is vital to know about it, since there are so many scriptures written about it.

Rapture means to be taken by force, against your will or your ability. It is found in the scriptures in many places times such as 1Th.4:17 caught up, this is the word the Latin Bible translates Rapio. (rapture)
Greek word is ARPAZW Rev.12:5; Jude 23; 2Cor.11:2,4 etc.

So does the Bible teach people will be taken by force, yes people will be raptured, absolutely!
Mt.13:36-43 Parable of the Tares - Jesus will send His angels and they shall take away the wicked!
2Th.2:7-10 When Jesus comes again His angels shall take away those who do not know God...
Rev.20:7-10 When Satan surrounds the saints, fire comes down and devours the wicked.

There is going to be a rapture, it will happen on judgment day, since Jesus is already ruling over His well established kingdom and we are well into His 1,000 yr. reign. Interesting when it happens the wicked are taken.

Mt.24:36ff Jesus explains the judgment day, just like the days of Noah, the flood came and took the wicked away. Then He says on that day, two people will be standing, one is taken one is left, who is taken - the wicked of course. Lk.17:26-37 explaining the judgment day as well.

Then the righteous will be gathered as in Mt.13:30 to the barn and then the wheat shall be sifted. Those alive on earth who are Christians must be judged, Mt.25 Parable of the 10 Virgins, do you have Faith? Parable of the men with talents Do you show hope in your life? The parable of the sheep and goats, do you practice loving the brethren?

1Th.4:13ff then we who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together in the clouds with Jesus and the saints who came with Him from heaven. To go off to the 'New earth', whatever that may be, for all of eternity. Rev.21:1

Love to talk about the Rapture, it is a little disturbing to those who think they know it, because they have it backwards, they think the righteous go first, when the Bible is very clear that when Jesus comes again the wicked shall be taken first. But they may argue for two raptures but there is clearly only one and it will be on judgment day.

I wonder if they will have the faith to realize that if their so wrong on their last days theology they might open their eyes to the error of their ways concerning how to become a Christian and maybe then they will give more thought to actually Repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And then maybe not.

RJ

I believe you probably meant to reference 2Th. 1:7-10.

Rapture is not actually a Biblical doctrine. I would hesitate calling it "Rapture" as to not get it confused with the denominational theory of rapture. The word "rapture" is nowhere found in the Bible. The Greek is "harpazō" and is translated "caught up".

The day that the Bible has labeled for us Christians to be "caught up" (harpazō) is called "the day of the Lord" (hēmera kurios)... not "rapture". As Christians we would be glorifying God to honor the name of the event that God has given it. We as Christians certainly won't be taken against our will... it may very well be by force, but we will be rejoicing and go very willfully.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

We might also refer to it as the "last day"...

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


The denominational theory of rapture claims that all Christians will be secretly removed from the earth seven years before judgment comes upon the wicked, that the earth will be around for 1007 years after the rapture. They believe Jesus will come three times, the first being when He died on the cross, was buried and resurrected. The second is the rapture of the saints and the third time is seven years after the rapture.


To clarify... those dead in Christ will be raised first and the remaining Christians will be caught up into the air with them.

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.


So after the dead in Christ are raised and the remaining Christians are caught up in the air with them... what will happen with those who are left?

Mat 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.

When that day of the Lord comes, the wicked will be thinking everything is fine, but then suddenly... at the same time the Christians are caught up, destruction will come on the wicked.

1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


This is the "that day" the Lord take vengeance on them...

2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


Then if we refer to the Parable of the Tares ... it is apparent that everything happens at the same time. The wicked are separated from the Christians... the wicked being left here on earth and the saved being caught up in the air.


The Parable of the 10 Virgins is more that just faith... do you have faith that produces works? Are you going to be lukewarm and unprepared or prepared to meet your maker?

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Faith will produce works just as the 10 virgins went and PREPARED to be ready. If they just believed to be ready, would they have been inside or outside when the bridegroom came?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Hello RJ, Thank you for your post and zeal for the Lord's coming. I would like you to please explain this verse (1 Thess 4:13-20) in light of your statment and the other verses you give.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-20
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Please read again, the whole chapter:

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is talking about the day being unexpected and not known. The one taken can easily be the righteous one. You cannot make such an assumption in light of verse 31 and the previous verse about the dead in Christ will rise first.

Matthew 24:36-51
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [g] 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Really, why does it matter who goes first, so long as we get there? We cannot control what God does with our soul (if He wants to pluck it from our body or not), we cannot control the returning of Christ or all of the other actions of God since we are not God so of course our soul can be taken by, as you call it, "force" by God. Whever God wants to send His Son for us to meet Him in the air, so be it. To Christ be the glory.

Steven here is my understanding of these verses: Thessalonians 4:13-20

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]

Those who have fallen asleep are in heaven with Christ at this time as we see in Heb.12:22ff and in many places in Rev. On the judgment day they will return with their immortal bodies with Christ.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Remain is also interpreted to be left behind, referring to those the angels do not take away in Mt.13: with the parable of the tares as well as 2Th.1:7-10; when the angels take away the wicked first leaving the righteous and again in Rev.20:7-10 where the fire takes away the forces of satan leaving the beloved city.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The word rise in this text can also applies to be given authority, which would be referring to their immortal bodies since at this time they are in spirit form until the judgment day. Their rising first is not from the grave but from heaven.

17 Then we who are alive and remain

The second time Paul uses remain, this would be after the judgment of the church, in Mt.13 the wheat will be gathered to the barn to be sifted. Those who need to be judged on judgment day are only those who are alive, for the dead have already been judged and are in Paradise or torment. So those who are sheep not goats of Mt.25 are the ones who remain and shall be caught up to join those saints who came with Christ from heaven

shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

If we are to comfort one another then we are to understand the judgment day, it is only complicated if we make it so and interpret it in light of denominational confusion.

Great to here from you Steven.

RJ Mac

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is talking about the day being unexpected and not known. The one taken can easily be the righteous one. You cannot make such an assumption in light of verse 31 and the previous verse about the dead in Christ will rise first.

Steven - sorry you err in your understanding of Mt.24:31 it has already taken place and was referencing the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD as we see from Mt.24:34 it has already taken place, fall of Jerusalem. Now Jesus changes and talks about the judgment day as we see in Mt.24:35 the day when heaven and earth will pass away. And on that day two people will be standing and one will be taken away and that one will be the wicked, for it will be like the days of noah when the water came and took away all the wicked ones, so on judgment day the fire will take away all the wicked ones first. See also Lk. 17:26ff

Really, why does it matter who goes first, so long as we get there? We cannot control what God does with our soul (if He wants to pluck it from our body or not), we cannot control the returning of Christ or all of the other actions of God since we are not God so of course our soul can be taken by, as you call it, "force" by God. Whever God wants to send His Son for us to meet Him in the air, so be it. To Christ be the glory.

To Christ be the glory Amen! But if God has recorded His word He did so that we might understand it or He wouldn't have recorded it. If it really doesn't matter then why are you commenting? Of course we cannot control God, but He doesn't ask us to control Him He asks us to understand Him. When we diligently seek Him, He will reward us, Heb.11:6; the reward I believe is greater insight to the Bible and what a rush that is.

It does matter to know who goes first because the Pentecostals and Baptists teach the good go first and if we can prove the Bible teaches the wicked go first, this fact shakes them to their foundation because they are so preparing to be taken and not be left behind. Our people need this information to give them material to work with since they are on the front lines of the battle and what do they have? Truth is important because it will set them free.

RJ Mac

RJ Mac - Before we proceed, please answer this question.

Do you believe that Jesus has already returned, in AD 70?


I believe Brother May has already asked you this question but I have not found that you have given an answer.

I will address your posts later when I have more time to read through it better.

I think that is a very valid question and before proceeding with other “questions and answers” we need to establish this fact first. I think it would be less confusion for the participants in this discussion.

Patiently waiting…

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Sorry guys, I was gone for the weekend and I'm hustling to catch up.
No I don't believe that Jesus came in 70 AD. My understanding of Revelation
is that it is about the Roman persecution of the church and has been fulfilled
up to Rev.20:6. We await the coming of our Lord, who will return on judgment day.

As for why it seems I believe Jesus came in 70 AD is because of my interpretation
of Mt.24:30 which I see as apocalyptic and referencing the destruction of Jerusalem
not by Christ Himself but by the Romans. To understand this one must go to Isa19:1
and see Isa. referencing the Assyrians coming to destroy the Egyptians, when Isa
speaks of God coming in the clouds, it means God is going to raise up a nation
to punish a nation. Mt.24:30 is not referencing judgment day or it contradicts Mt.24:34

RJ Mac

I think Matthew 24:29-31 are difficult passages to understand, but I also believe they reference the destruction of Jerusalem in a figurative way.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

In addition to the verses you suggest, one should back up to verse 15 (24:15ff) and read through 31. With this accomplished, a good study would be Daniel 9:24-27, Is. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7 and others. Many of these passages are apocolyptic and written strictly for the believing. All of these time were perilous times for the saints and they only would understand the meanings. If it had been written in everyday language, all would have faced destruction from the ruling forces.

A thorough study of Daniel would be a great prerequisite for the study of the Revelation letter.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Certainly, these posts have more than explained the "rapture" as a term developed by those who believe in premillennialism. One of the things the Lord's church should try to do is to call Bible things by Bible names and not go beyond what is written (1 Cor 4). The Bible speaks of a judgment, but not of a "rapture." The idea of a rapture is a misapplication of 1 Thess 4. We should be ready for the judgment, for when Christ comes again "he shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:28 ASV.) Not to initiate a period of great tribulation, a battle of Armageddon or a 1,000 year reign.

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"that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

Using the word rapture is to catch one's attention. In the original post I made it clear
that it had nothing to do with what the charismatics teach but in fact when we see the rapture
in the Bible it teaches the opposite. Rapture means taken by force and that is taught and seen
in texts like Mt.13: parable of the tares, 2Th.1:7-10; rev.20:7-10; Mt.24:36-41; Lk.17:31-37; and
1Th.4:13ff; All these reference judgment day and the rapture, the taken by force of the wicked.

We like to say there is no such thing and move on. Which seems to be a popular form of argument
in the brotherhood. But dismissal answers nothing but exposes the fact that we don't have the
explanation for the text which creates wonder and doubt in the minds of our teens and young adults.
One can see that there is a rapture happening, we can't deny it, we must explain it. We shouldn't say
they are wrong, what we need to do is to show what is right, the Truth.

Are we so quick to jump to the defense of the scriptures that we do more damage than good?
How does one get in dialogue if all one does is denounce what others believe. We must get in dialogue
if we hope to make disciples.

RJ Mac
tell me what is right

It captures my attention because it was started by those teaching a false teaching. Why do you not use the word Pope?

All Im going to say for now on the subject is rapture is not in the english version of the Bible the vulgate is a different story. It is raptura there, when it was translated from Greek to latin that is the word with the same meaning as it was in greek. Dont have my notes with me so I cannot go into great detail. Rapture is not in the english Bible, had we lived before Martin Luther and we were priests then we would see it in the Bible. Either way Ive read the end of the Book and we win woot go us!

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James 4:14.

How can you do more damage than good by defending the scriptures? We do not need to use language that was started by false teachers and false doctrine; this surely would confuse those "babes in Christ". Just stick to the teachings of the Bible and do not try and change it around. This creates confusing and distrust. If you use the words such as rapture and cannot prove its existance with the scriptures, how is this helping!!

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

I would like to make a correction in my post the latin Bible contained raptus. Which translated in english is rapture

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James 4:14.

In what context is the word used?? Do not have access to a Latin Bible or Vulgate.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Ok so the greek bible used the word harpazo which has two meanings "to seize" and to "snatch". Also this verse 1 Thess. 4:17 the words "caught up" is the way it is in english, so it was from greek harpazo, to raptus, to caught up. It means the same thing it just goes through the translations. A theological definition of rapture is to be moved from one plane of existance to another so when Christ comes for us even though rapture is not used in the english Bible it is fitting.

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James 4:14.

The point being made by using the word rapture is the fact that it does happen. The concept is taught
in the NT. Deny its existence simple shows a lack of study especially to new Christians. They have
heard so much from the denominations, so why not explore the concept and teach the truth.

Yes it happens, but when, on judgment day, after the 1,000 yr reign of Christ which we are in.
Who is raptured first, the wicked are taken first, the exact opposite of what the charismatics
teach. I think people don't read the scripture references, instead they see one word Rapture and
see red.

RJ Mac