Does a just loving God torment people night and day with burning fire for all of eternity?? Is there such a place as a lake of fire? Jesus compares existence to hell as worms rooting through a garbage dump. Jesus uses lots of everyday examples to give us an insight to a spiritual truth. But how far can we take those comparisons?

Dante came up with a horrible idea that hell was a place of eternal torment, in agony forever. Now that doesn't sound very kind nor deserving. When you watch a war movie and they see the enemy burning alive, they usually shoot him and put him out of his misery, but as Christians our idea of hell is for God to extend His life and add fuel to the fire. It just doesn't sound right.

We get our idea of hell by taking the scriptures literally and rolling them all together and taa daa! It's screaming pain for eternity! But what if we looked symbolically, especially at Rev.20:15 Lake of Fire?? Revelation is a symbolic book, pictures that explain spiritual truths, I don't picture heaven to be literally streets of gold, what I see is, it is beyond all we can imagine. After all its dimensions don't make sense physically but they do taken literally, since the number 144 is used a lot.

When we study symbolism in the Bible - the Word of God is represented as water. Ezek. 47:1f water flowing from the temple. Jn.4 Jesus offering water that wells up from within, never thirst again. River of Life flowing from the throne of God Rev.22? 21? close. To be cursed is not to have a supply of water, to live in waterless places, to be blessed is to be by a living spring. The demons when cast out went to waterless places why because water represents the word of God and they want nothing to do with it.

Therefore where is the one place where water isn't, the lake of fire, and if water is the Word then in hell there is no Word of God. If there is no Word of God then a person has NO FAITH - NO HOPE - NO LOVE HELL! The torment is the eternal destiny of hopelessness, no way out. The movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray bests describes hell in modern terms. Everyday he woke up was groundhog day, he could do whatever he wanted, rob a bank, make a date, steal a car, but it was always Groundhog day, back to square one when he woke up and it was driving him crazy.

Hell to me is to spend eternity in an eternal body with my very thoughts as we see the rich man had in Lk.16 but unable to change anything, no hope, no change for eternity. And knowing I once was a Christian makes the torment that much worse to the fallen. There will be differing degrees of punishment and the punishment will all be self induced. Those who knew little - fewer stripes those who knew a lot - more stripes.

I am not trying to make it sound like a good place, but lets not make it something it isn't as well. Rich man was looking for water, only thing that truly satisfies the soul is water of God's Word but there is none there. An eternal passing of time with no faith, no hope, no love.

I see hell portrayed symbolically in scriptures and either way you want to look at it, you don't ever want to go there, but it does exist for we are all eternal.

RJ Mac

Very interesting. I've never really given this a lot of thought, nor have I studied it, although I have often wondered how a person (or soul) could survive in fire eternally.

How to reason with the following passages:

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.


One thing for sure... we ain't gonna wanna be there.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I think Jesus and John used language to describe Hell as a place we certainly do not want to go and in ways for us to try and understand. I think the "fire" of hell is quite different than the fire we know about living on earth. For example, we know earthly fire gives off light, but Hell is also described as "outer darkness" in Revelation. That doesn't make any sense to me. But trust me, looking at all the scriptures concerning Hell, we do not want to end up there. Hell was not made for us anyway, it was made for Satan and his angels.

A correction to my above post: Hell is described as "outer darkness" in the gospel accounts, not in Revelation.

I believe it to be a fire, but Hell is a spiritual place just as Heaven is. I just think to say that the lake of fire is literally like the fire we have on earth is not what Jesus intended. We only know of what fire does here on earth. It is one of the most destructive forces we experience. We have seen what earthly fire can do, the lake of fire will be worse, because it will never be quenched and the weeping and gnashing of teeth will not cease. We do not want to go there and God does not want us to go there either.

We all know that God is loving and merciful and kind and is patient toward us, but we would do well to remember that He is GOD and we are accountable to Him. It was his great love for us that compelled him to even let us know about Hell and gave us the plan of salvation so that we can avoid it.

And not only that, He is a JUST God.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

He is indeed a just God.

I understand where you are coming from, Craig. Some like to think of God as a ‘loving God’ only. But we tend to forget that we also serve a God of justice. How do I say this this…let me say it as the apostle Paul said, “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness…” (Rom. 11: 22). In other words, if I can use this expression, God’s goodness cannot be described in human terms, neither can His severity. Or, one might say, God’s goodness is equal to His severity. Either way, we serve a God who is as good as can be in words that the human language cannot describe AND we also serve a God that’s punishments cannot be described in human language.
We have descriptive language of what hell is like such as: “Everlasting fire” (Matt. 25:41), “outer darkness” (Matt. 8:12), and “Where their worm dieth not” (Mark 9:48), etc.
But the best verse that comes to my mind of the grander and the unseen or even comprehensive understanding of what heaven will be like is: “…Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor. 2:9).
This tells me that God cannot describe the goodness of heaven (in man’s terms) any more than He can describe the severity (in man’s terms) of how horrible hell is. Granted, language is used to describe both…but we as humans don’t even know; nor are we capable of understanding the consequence of both realms.

PS. Welcome to the forum, you made a good point.

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Bert Thompson wrote on this very topic in his book The Origin, Destiny And Nature of The Soul. You can read it free online at:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs...s_pdf/onds.pdf

Kindly,
Don

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Thank you all for your kind words.

Yes, I agree, thanks for the reminder.

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Rev 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Rev 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible says the punishment is eternal. It says it's firey and will not be quenched. The rich man said he was tormented in flames. We go as far as the word of God takes us.

Nobody came up with it. It's a fact of the word of God. Dante, whoever he is, simply stated a Biblical truth.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Lazarus was in Hades though. I know you are probably just making the point about fire though, but I just want it to be clear.

I meant to say that the rich man was in torment in Hades. I was commenting on this:


He was just commenting that the rich man was in torment in flames. I just wanted to expand on this by saying that the rich man was not in Hell. I am not disagreeing with him.

Yes he is in Hades. His eternal destination is Heaven. The rich man is in Hades, his eternal destiny is hell. My primary focus was the fire.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

It is a sobering thought. The same rich man who pleaded for a drop of water to cool his tongue is still in the same condition right now. He has been there all this time and all he has to look forward to is being cast into the lake of fire where he will never ever ever escape.

I don't think we are capable of fully comprehending just how awful Hell is going to be. I think Heaven is better than we can imagine and Hell is worse than our worst nightmares.

Eternity is a long long time. I want mine to be a good one.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

The truth about heaven and hell is scriptural.While we uphold to activities that gradually lead us to either place, the fact remains that heaven is a place of no sorrows and tears- peace beyound discription: but hell is a place of wailling and gnashing of teeth-pain beyound discription. The eternal part of man shall be the victim whem God brings down the curtain on the activities of the entire human race and the entire enviroment he has created. The wisest decission for the human race is to hold on to God's ordained precepts that that leads to the place of peace beyound discription-HEAVEN.

While both men were in the hadean realm (Luke 16), they were in very different places within that realm.

The hadean realm is not a new concept in the NT. Hades is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word Sheol. A word study will show you its usage all through the OT. The Hebrew mind saw Sheol as being "in the ground" Why? Simple really, each night they watched the Sun get swallowed up by the ground (if you watch the sun set you get the idea) and each morning the Sun would break free from Sheol to once again reach the sky. Is it any wonder then, why so many in the past have worshiped the Sun? It defeats death, it is swallowed up but comes out victorious. of course, we know that Sheol or Hades are not "in the ground" no more that heaven is in the clouds or just past the moon.

Lazarus was in Paradise, Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22 & Luke 23:43)

While the rich man was in tartarus (2 Peter 2:4), Luke simply uses hades in his reference in Luke 16:23

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that the KJV took all references to the Hadean world and translated them as Hell. This is unfortunate.

The hadean world will be experienced by all those who die while under "Individual eschatology" (what happens to us from the time we die until Jesus returns). But there will be those who do not experience the hadean world in the sense of Individual Eschatology because they will be alive when Christ returns. In this case we speak of "General Eschatology" (what happens to everyone from the time Christ returns and through eternity). So while not everyone will experience Individual Eschatology, we will all experience General Eschatology. So we need to be ready by being obedient to the Gospel Plan of Salvation.

The point to keep in mind, is that Luke 16 has nothing to do with Hell as the eternal place of the condemned. Luke 16 is dealing with Individual Eschatology and is simply showing that while each man waits for General Eschatology to occur, one is in a place of rest and comfort and the other is in a place of torment and pain. Should I die before the Lord returns I long to be in Paradise of hades and not in Tartarus of Hades. My father died outside of the Lord's Church, he died having not been obedient to the Gospel Plan of Salvation, it grieves me to think of him along side the rich man. I want to be found faithful at the coming of our Lord and if I die before his coming, to be placed in Paradise of Hades. I want this for all people every where.

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

And even if hell exists as a place for those who die in their sins to suffer forever, should that be the primary reason to serve God?

Absoutely not!

I see what you mean. I was not thinking about it in those terms but can see how some would think like that ("serve God or burn in hell" way of thinking).

I try to teach that because of who Jesus is (Saviour: Luke 2:11) and what he has done (died for our sins: Ephesians 1:7) and what that means to us (saved: Romans 6:23), we are encouraged by the Love of God (Romans 5:8) to serve him (2 Timothy 3:17).

It is (should be) the Love of God that draws us into a relationship with him, not the fear (1 John 4:7-11). In fact, we can see this very thing taking place in the life of Christ. he could have come with an angelic army and destroyed those who refused to accept him, but instead he came as a humble servant seeking to love us so we would love him (again Romans 5:8).

Hell as Jesus says was created for Stan and his angels (Matthew 25:41). The sad thing is, many people will choose hell instead of choosing heaven. How? By not being obedient to the Bible and what it teaches we must do (John 12:48). A person who rejects Jesus as the Christ (Acts 4:12) and refuse to be obedient to the Gospel Plan of Salvation (hear: Romans 10:17 / believe: Mark 16:16 / Repent: Luke 13:3 / Confess: Matt. 10:32-33 / be baptized: Acts 2:38) is one who is choosing hell (Romans 6:23a). Sad, but true.

Kindly,
Don

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

What you say may be true, but our purpose in serving God should not be to avoid hellfire. That is certainly what He had in mind when He created us!

Yes, Don, we choose God or not! Ultimately those are our only two choices. Our primary purpose should always be to be to please Him rather to obtain the rewards (or punishments) promised...

Tell me which one of these quotes is from the Bible:

A) "For God so loved the world that He decided eternal torment was too mean, and cancelled it."

B) "For God so loved the world that He quit being such a stickler for His rules."

C) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Hint: It involves a concept of love that doesn't quite jibe with common notions.

Job 14:12 ...man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more...

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

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"He breaks down and it cannot be built again
He shuts up a man
and there can be no opening
He withholds the waters
they dry up
He sends them out
they overturn the earth
With Him is strength and wisdom
the deceived and the deceiver are His
He leads counsellors away spoiled, makes the judges fools "