Now don't be jumping to high yet - yes I believe there is a heaven and there is a hell. But do they go together? If I die today, I am going to heaven, because of the blood of Christ. If a person outside of Christ dies he goes to Hades. People in heaven are spirits and people in Hades are spirits. Heaven and Hades.

Come judgment day we who are saved will go to the New Earth Rev.21:1-3; after we are given our immortal bodies, 1Cor.15:51-54; The wicked will receive their immortal bodies and shall dwell in GHENNA or hell, the eternal destiny of the wicked, and New Earth will be the eternal destiny of the righteous, where Christ will walk with men once again, like He did in the Garden of Eden. Gen.3:1ff

So my question is this, heaven and hell - is this true? Wouldn't it be scriptural to say, heaven and hades, since both of these hold the spirits of men, awaiting the judgment day? And wouldn't we say, new earth and hell, because both of these places will hold the immortal bodies of men, eternally, after the judgement day.

Do we say heaven and hell because the denominational world has always stated it that way? Is this being too picky or is this not a door of discussion to family and friends, when they use the terms this way, we can correct them, with love and introduce them to proper spiritual thinking, possibly opening doors for future discussion?

Food for thought.
RJ Mac

Please give scripture that when one dies...that same day they go to Heaven or Hell and bypasses the Day of Judgement?

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Hades is where the dead are held, whether it be Paradise or the place of torment... awaiting that day of judgment. Afterwards they will either enter heaven or be cast into hell.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

In Luke 23, Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Note Jesus said Paradise, not Heaven. After His resurrection in John 20, Jesus told Mary Magdalene "I have not yet ascended to My Father". Now we know that this place called Paradise where Jesus and the thief went was not where the Father abides. God abides in Heaven, so when a saved one dies, he does not go directly to Heaven.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Laura - the day Jesus died He went to paradise with the thief on the cross and that was also called Abraham's bosom as we see in Lk.16 with the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus did not go into heaven as you rightly state as we see in Jn.20 with Mary. Jesus goes into heaven when He ascends 40 days latter and when He does He goes with His blood, making the way possible for everyone else.

Eph.4:8 he took captivity captive, captivity was Abraham's bosom, it was the righteous in Hades not awaiting judgment day but for Christ to kick open the gates of Hades and take them into heaven as we see in Heb.11:39,40 OT righteous men not made perfect. Then in Heb.12:23 we see them in heaven, the spirits of righteous men made perfect, with the saints, the church of the firstborn, and all are in heaven as the Hebrew author pens this letter. Look in Rev.6:9-11 the souls of saints under the altar in heaven. Rev.7:9-17 the saints in heaven at that time, at this time, right now.

Paradise is no longer in hades, see 2Cor.12:2-4 Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven, the throne room of God which he also calls Paradise. Eph.4:8; Jesus took Paradise into heaven once His blood was shed now sin was forgiven and the spirits of men could enter into heaven. Now some will argue there must be more than one paradise, I believe there is but one Paradise and Paul tells us where it is now. There are no righteous souls in Hades because Jesus has taken them to heaven with Him and when we die we are judged, in the blood or not, if not your in hades if you are your in heaven.

Do we all go to heaven after judgment day? Not according to Rev.21:1-4 a new earth the word new means never seen before, not like the Jehovah's witnesses teach a renewed earth as before, no this will be a place where we will have immortal bodies 1Cor.15:53 and Christ will surrender the kingdom to His Father so He can live and walk with us, 1Cor.15:24 so we will return to the relationship He originally intended with Adam and Eve when He walked with them. Gen.2,3;

Heaven is for the spirits of righteous men but the new earth will be for those with immortal bodies, where we will do what God has always intended for men to do, live with God in an atmosphere of pure love. What will that be like, you have to strive to be faithful to find out and only the victorious who overcome will see that day and sing that new song. What motivation to renew our fight against darkness and get excited to what lies beyond.

RJ Mac

Could you please provide specific scripture for this assertion.

Respectfully, I have read these verses and do not see anything in them remotely like what you are saying here. I think you have read a lot more into these verses than the words on the paper.

I just looked up Hebrews 12:23. It says,
"to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect"
No where does it say the saints are IN heaven. It says they are REGISTERED in heaven. The two are not synonymous. When we are saved, our names get written in the book of life (Philippians 4:3), which resides in heaven. That's all this verse is referring to.

First, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is written in symbolic language. The souls of the saints under the altar in heaven is a symbolic term. There are not real altars in heaven as there is no more need for sacrifice. Jesus was our sacrifice and He died once for all.

Respectfully, this passage does not say "the throne room of God". The word heaven clearly can sometimes mean Paradise, which Paul states here. That in no way implies it is the abode of God.

This is the second time you have said this yet produced no scriptural proof. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus took Paradise into heaven?

And again, respectfully, where does the Bible teach this? 2 Peter 2:9 says that God reserves the unjust for the day of judgment. Not days, where each person has his own upon his death. Day, singular. There is ONE judgment day.

So you are saying that the spirits of righteous men will not be given immortal bodies? Again, where does the Bible say these things you are asserting. I just don't see it in there.

Respectfully,

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

On Judgement day all of the dead who are in Christ shall arise. 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Jesus Himself says that all who are in the graves shall hear His voice (John 5:28). The faithful who are in their graves shall be resurrected unto eternal life. (John 5:29).

Moreover, at the last trump, the resurrected shall be raised with an incorruptible body and those who are alive at that moment receive it in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52-53). This is the moment at which we receive our bodies which will never again die. It is with these bodies that the saved enter into heaven with, while the lost go to their punishment.

Your belief that the saved are in heaven right now places them there before they receive the final day of judgment presents some problems.

1) Scripture says that the dead are "sleeping" which means resting and awaiting resurrection. If they are in heaven already, then why would would they be awaiting resurrection. What would be the purpose?

2) Scripture says that we will be changed, including the dead at the resurrection. If the saved are in heaven, then they had to have received this "change" whatever it is, prior to entry there. If they are in heaven now, for what purpose would they be arisen and then changed to their incorruptible body? Should they not already have this if they are in heaven?

3) And scripture says, as I already pointed out, that those in the graves shall be (future tense) resurrected to eternal life. If they are in heaven, then why would they be resurrected to something they already have?

If I may suggest, why don't consider this?

The dead all go to place called "Hades" in our language. This word means the "place of departed souls". This is where we find the rich man and Lazarus and where we find Jesus Christ after his crucifixion. Jesus called this place paradise. he told the thief that TODAY you will be WITH ME in paradise. Jesus was in the Hadean realm for three days. So it obvious that there is a place of paradise in Hades. There has to be, or else there was something very wrong with what Jesus said.

Jesus Christ was the firstborn from the dead, never to die again. He received his eternal body. He has it now.

There are two sides to the Hadean realm, We have the paradise side which we know Jesus and the thief and Lazarus went to. Now in scripture we have the name of the side the rich man was in found in the original Greek which is also translated "Hell" in the KJV. Look in:

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell , and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The Greek word for "Hell" in this instance is "Tartaroo" from which we have the english word "Tartarus" today. This word means "deepest abyss of Hades"

The dead in Christ go to a place of rest and paradise where they await the resurrection in Hades.
The dead outside of Christ go to a place of torment in Hades.
When Jesus returns, all the dead in Hades shall be resurrected and shall receive their eternal destiny at that time.

In Revelation we have a picture of the final resurrection:

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death .
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Hell in verse 13 is from the Greek word Hades. Reading on in the context we see that when Hades gives up its dead, those who were not found in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire at that time. Obvioulsy there were some coming from Hades that would be found in the book of life.

Given the body of evidence we have, I think this is a much more accurate way of understanding how things will be at the judgement. I do not think the saved are in heaven right now with Jesus Christ. That is yet to come when the dead are all raised together in the sight of the condemned where all will bow their knees to God and the saved will be glorified after which everybody then goes to their eternal rewards.

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Laura - I will see what I can answer for you:

Jesus goes into heaven when He ascends 40 days latter and when He does He goes with His blood, making the way possible for everyone else.
Could you please provide specific scripture for this assertion. Heb.9:11-15;

Eph.4:8 he took captivity captive, captivity was Abraham's bosom, it was the righteous in Hades not awaiting judgment day but for Christ to kick open the gates of Hades and take them into heaven as we see in Heb.11:39,40 OT righteous men not made perfect.
Respectfully, I have read these verses and do not see anything in them remotely like what you are saying here.

Respectfully I would appreciate you sharing what you believe the text to say, its easy to say I don't believe what I say. Abraham's bosom was seen as a prison, no one from the OT new what Sheol was about until Jesus enlightened us in Lk.16. No one went to heaven until the blood of Christ was shed.
But I await your explanation of Eph.4:8;


Then in Heb.12:23 No where does it say the saints are IN heaven. It says they are REGISTERED in heaven. The two are not synonymous. When we are saved, our names get written in the book of life (Philippians 4:3), which resides in heaven. That's all this verse is referring to.

Interesting how the Hebrew author uses the word REGISTERED - APOGRAPHA - is used when we see that Joseph had to go with Mary to register for the census in Lk.2:1,3,5; To register one had to be there personally. Yes my name is written in the book of life but it can be erased. These guys are there personally and personally registered. Note what the text says he sees, a festal assembly, angels, God, Jesus, spirits of righteous men, the assembly of the first born, he doesn't say the book of the assembly, he says the assembly. We see that same assembly in heaven in Rev.7:9-17; again in Rev.20:4-6; If they are not in heaven then please explain those two Rev. quotes.


Look in Rev.6:9-11 the souls of saints under the altar in heaven. Rev.7:9-17 the saints in heaven at that time, at this time, right now.
First, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is written in symbolic language. The souls of the saints under the altar in heaven is a symbolic term. There are not real altars in heaven as there is no more need for sacrifice. Jesus was our sacrifice and He died once for all.

They are under the altar because they are the sacrifices and God speaks to them in heaven telling them to wait until the rest of them shall be killed then He would put a stop to the Roman persecution. These martyrs are not in hades but in heaven.


Paradise is no longer in hades, see 2Cor.12:2-4 Paul was taken to the 3rd heaven, the throne room of God which he also calls Paradise.
Respectfully, this passage does not say "the throne room of God". The word heaven clearly can sometimes mean Paradise, which Paul states here. That in no way implies it is the abode of God.

Okay so your being technical, heaven cannot mean throne room of God, but it can mean paradise, but God does not abide in heaven. I beg to differ.


Jesus took Paradise into heaven once His blood was shed now sin was forgiven and the spirits of men could enter into heaven.
This is the second time you have said this yet produced no scriptural proof. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus took Paradise into heaven?

Ep.4:8; awaiting your explanation, mine is that captivity is Abraham's bosom, God's people who waited in hades until the time was right. Jesus came and explained everything to them and when He ascended taking His blood into heaven, the way was made possible for men to enter heaven and they did.


There are no righteous souls in Hades because Jesus has taken them to heaven with Him and when we die we are judged, in the blood or not, if not your in hades if you are your in heaven.
And again, respectfully, where does the Bible teach this? 2 Peter 2:9 says that God reserves the unjust for the day of judgment. Not days, where each person has his own upon his death. Day, singular. There is ONE judgment day.

Your concept of judgment day is lacking. Lets go back to Lk.16 the rich man has been judged, he is in torment, Lazarus has been judged, he is in Abraham's bosom, the chasm is such no man can cross, upon death you are judged, you know where you will spend eternity. Judgment day is the end of the world and all men who are alive on earth will be judged and given immortal bodies and sent to the new earth or hell.
The day you die you are judged and know your eternal destiny. What you are saying is those in Abraham's bosom still fear the judgment day and those in torment are still planning their defense to present before God to get into heaven.


Heaven is for the spirits of righteous men but the new earth will be for those with immortal bodies, where we will do what God has always intended for men to do, live with God in an atmosphere of pure love.
So you are saying that the spirits of righteous men will not be given immortal bodies? Again, where does the Bible say these things you are asserting. I just don't see it in there.


Heaven is for the spirits of righteous men, as hades is the place of the spirits of wicked men, the new earth the eternal abode of the righteous, Rev.21:1-4; is where we will live with our immortal bodies. Hell is where the wicked will go with their immortal bodies for all of eternity.

Laura next post lets just go with one question and please give your full explanation of what you believe the text to say, it will make things easier. I will answer all your questions and I realize you can't see some concepts but that doesn't mean they are not there.

Respectfully

David:

Is there a text that says we will go to heaven on judgment day as you proposed, with immortal bodies. What I proposed is that heaven was temporal and the new earth is the eternal destiny of the saints.

David are you suggesting that the dead are sleeping literally? What is your definition of a grave? Is it in a field on earth or is it the hadean realm and if it is could it be in heaven too.

The righteous are in heaven awaiting the judgment day when they will be given their immortal bodies, when Christ surrenders the kingdom to the Father and dwells with the saints on the new earth for all of eternity, which is what has been planned from the beginning of time. Heb.12:22ff; 1Cor.15:50ff

Those in heaven are in spirit form, as are the wicked in hades in spirit form. They shall rise first ie be given their immortal bodies and return with Jesus as we see in 1Th.3:13... at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ WITH all His saints. If Jesus returns with His saints as Paul states, then Jesus mus be in Hades now if He will return with His saints and the saints are as you say in hades.

RISE - ANASTASIS - definitions - to rise, to raise up, to awaken, to institute or install in a function, to mark the beginning of an action, My proposal is the dead are raised not to be seen literaly out of a earthen grave but coming back with Christ from heaven marking the beginning of an action, judgment day.

We agree totally on the picture of hades as Jesus stated in Lk.16, where we disagree is I believe that after Jesus ascends on high, men can now enter heaven because the way has been made by His blood. But we all await judgment day when we will go to our eternal abodes, new earth or hell.

In Rev.20:13-15 I say that this is not the judgment of mankind but of wicked men. Note the use of the word DEAD by John in his writings he is always using it concerning the wicked. This is the judgment of the wicked, the sea (society) gave up her dead, death and hades gave up their dead (you have to be dead to be in hades, so he is referring to the wicked) the dead were judged, but the dead already know their destiny, unless of course he is referring to the living dead, as he was in Rev.20:5 the rest of the dead. The statement concerning the book of life was one of reassurance that if your name is there you will not be caught up with the wicked, a promise from God.

But Rev.20:4-6 shows the victorious saints in heaven, reigning with Christ for the 1,000 yrs. But if we don't go to heaven then can you explain who are these that are in heaven now?

Our disagreement is; you believe no one is in heaven now but everyone is waiting in hades for judgment day and I believe; Jesus blood made it possible for the spirits of righteous men to enter heaven as we see in Heb.12:22ff; and numerous examples of the martyrs in heaven in Revelation. Its cool if you believe one way or the other, both can still be victorious in the end if we remain faithful to Christ. My purpose is to generate deeper thought into what the Bible says. Look forward to more of your comments.

Great to have dialogue with you, forgive me if I offend, I don't mean to.

RJ Mac

RJ-

Please answer a question for me before I get into discussion very deep. Do you believe Jesus returned in A.D. 70?

For one, in 2 Cor. 12 - Paul did not go to third heaven. He knew a man that did.

Secondly, the sky is called the heavens, space is also called the heavens and the spiritual realm is also called the heavens.. When Jesus went into heaven, which direction did He go? Somewhere in this journey, somehow, the spirit realm is entered. Paul did not know if this man who was taken up was in the flesh or not but only that he was taken up.

You say these things like you know for sure but RJ, you are speaking with no foundation or truth. This is troubling since this kind of broad teaching can get you into trouble.

You have to back up your thoughts with scripture and keep them in the proper context.

It is very clear that judgment happen after Jesus returns and we meet him in the sky. During this time, the righteous are in paradise and the unrighteous are in torment. How do we know this? Well because Jesus has not returned yet.

During the judgment all man will be before God, separated, one into heaven and the other into the lake of fire, along with the devil and his angels. It is that simple. Going into what ifs and effort to somehow figure out something new that others have not will only get you into hot water with God. It can easily become false teaching since you speak as if you have knowledge and authority but give nothing to back it up except mis-used scriptures and miss applied contexts.

Please be more careful to stick with the contexts and proper usage. I appreciate your zeal but I want to encourage you to walk more cautiously cause that snake (reasoning) will bite you.

Your “body of evidence” certainly coincides with what the apostle Peter said in Acts 2 because Peter stated that king David had NOT yet ascended into the heavens (verse 34). And David had been dead for about 1000 years when Peter made that statement.

__________________
BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Thanks Butch, that should pretty much settle the issue once and for all.

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand.

In case there is any further doubt, let me add:

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The same blood that works for us, worked also for all the faithful under the old covenant.

In my mind, this issue is settled.

__________________
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

RJ,

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

FWIW: He has not logged in to the forum since about an hour prior to you posting your question, so he may not have seen it yet.

Interesting question, which I am curious to see the answer to myself.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Joe May - sorry I am not used to the activity on this forum and I am very pleased
to see so many comments happening. I will try and get on the ball.

No I don't believe as some that Jesus came again in 70 AD other than in the sense of
Isa.19:1 which teaches God raises up a nation to punish a nation, the Assyrians came
and punished the Egyptians in this prophecy. So Jesus in Mt.24:30 is using the same
apocalyptic language and saying He is going to raise up the Romans to punish the Jews
ie 70 AD.

RJ Mac

Stephen: Most scholars say Paul is speaking of himself in 2Cor. and doing so
because he does not want to build himself up before people. 14 yrs ago would
place Paul in Lystra on his 1st journey, where he was stoned and left for dead.
Then getting up he walked back into the city where they just stoned him, having
the courage to do so because he just came back from heaven.

Our sky is called the 1st heaven, the universe the 2nd heaven and God’s throne
room, heaven, is the third heaven.

I am confident that what I have said is the truth and everything is backed up
with scriptures. To hum and haw, maybe or possibly, is not what God calls us
to do, 2Tim.1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power and of love
and of a sound mind.

Judgment happens the day you die. Lk.16 the rich man is in torment and Lazarus
is in Paradise, with a chasm in between which no one can cross. In fact judgment
begins with us here and now, 1Pe.4:17

Going into the what if’s is what started the restoration movement, a movement
which is not dead but on going. Not trying to figure out God’s word is what ails
the church today. thinking we have unlocked all the texts and understand all
there is stifles growth.

You say I am misusing scriptures, out of context, but you don’t show how I am,
nor give the correct use. I do have knowledge, I am a student of God’s word, and
the authority I have comes from the name of Jesus.

If we err, we can repent and move on, but if we haven’t tried, we bury our talent
under a rock.

RJ Mac

This is not wholly true.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus, be it a parable or true story is nevertheless true to life, so from it we learn that upon death, we are in the Hadean world, which is made up of two parts. This can be considered a judgement of sorts, but it is not the judgement spoke of in Scripture.

Consider this: Our civil authorities have enough knowledge to leave the good folks on the streets and the bad guys in jail. Give God enough credit that He knows who is who.

Judgement Day is not a time of true judgement as we know it. Rather, it is a time of vindication when God announces the final destination of the righterous and the wicked. There will be no surprises for those who are already deceased on Judgement Day as I understand it.

Please provide Scriptural support showing that people are in Heaven or Hell right now as compared to a temporary place.

[quote=RJ Mac;1404][quote=Steven;1072]For one, in 2 Cor. 12 - Paul did not go to third heaven. He knew a man that did.

Secondly, the sky is called the heavens, space is also called the heavens and the spiritual realm is also called the heavens.. When Jesus went into heaven, which direction did He go? Somewhere in this journey, somehow, the spirit realm is entered. Paul did not know if this man who was taken up was in the flesh or not but only that he was taken up.

You say these things like you know for sure but RJ, you are speaking with no foundation or truth. This is troubling since this kind of broad teaching can get you into trouble.

You have to back up your thoughts with scripture and keep them in the proper context.

It is very clear that judgment happen after Jesus returns and we meet him in the sky. During this time, the righteous are in paradise and the unrighteous are in torment. How do we know this? Well because Jesus has not returned yet.

So Paul is a lier? Paul lied in the Holy Spirit? Think carefully about your implication before you quote or refer to any "man" or "scholar" and answer my question. The answer you give may come back to haunt you some day.

The reason you may be off on such things is because you listen to such people. Listen to the Word, not "scholars".


Our sky is called the 1st heaven, the universe the 2nd heaven and God’s throne
room, heaven, is the third heaven.

I am confident that what I have said is the truth and everything is backed up
with scriptures. To hum and haw, maybe or possibly, is not what God calls us
to do, 2Tim.1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power and of love
and of a sound mind.

Judgment happens the day you die. Lk.16 the rich man is in torment and Lazarus
is in Paradise, with a chasm in between which no one can cross. In fact judgment
begins with us here and now, 1Pe.4:17

Going into the what if’s is what started the restoration movement, a movement
which is not dead but on going. Not trying to figure out God’s word is what ails
the church today. thinking we have unlocked all the texts and understand all
there is stifles growth.

The if's are fin