Heaven and Hell - Is This True? - Page 3 - Christian Forum - Bible Forum - Christian Religion Bible Study Forum

Steven Rasberry · #51 (**permalink**) 04-07-08, 05:42 PM

Lots of verses are great, if they apply. If they are random and unattached except by some far stretch of gymnastics, they are not the best to use. I apply this to myself and is all about being cautious and careful in the teaching of the scriptures.

broSonnie · #52 (**permalink**) 04-08-08, 12:53 AM

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Jesus descended to Hades and conquered death, therefore He holds death captive. He triumphed in victory!

Here is an interesting study from the Denton Lectures...

Quote:

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE STATEMENT THAT CHRIST "LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE" WHEN HE ASCENDED? (Eph. 4:8)

Eph. 4:8 is obviously based upon Ps. 68:18. However, Paul's statement of the Psalm differs somewhat from David's original wording. Perhaps the best place to begin answering the question concerning what Paul means is to harmonize the two passages, which are produced together below:

"Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them" (Ps. 68:18).

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men" (Eph. 4:8).

Attention is directed to major differences between the two passages: (1) There is a change from the second person "thou" (Ps. 68:18) to the third person "He" (Eph. 4:8). (2) There is a change from receiving gifts (Ps. 68:18) to giving gifts (Eph. 4:8). (3) Paul adds, "Wherefore he saith," to introduce his quotation of the Psalm. To whom does the "he" have reference? Does it refer to God, to Christ, or to neither? Lenski suggests that it is better to leave the verb as impersonal (the verb does not indicate gender, which must be determined from context). He renders the expression, "the declaration is," rather than to try and make a choice of one of three options: "God says," "Christ says," or "the Scripture" says.

Some feel that the differences between these passages are slight and are made arbitrarily by Paul to prove his point. Critics state that "such a view, indeed, would open the door to the wildest freaks of interpretation."

Some questions come to mind: (1) Is Paul quoting the passage? (2) Is he offering an interpretation of an Old Testament verse? (3) Or, is he using this passage as a typological fulfillment? If the passage is taken as a quotation, there are serious problems that must be faced. How may such changes be explained? If the text is presented as interpretation, it is either a direct fulfillment (as with the virgin birth, Matt. 1:22-23), or, it is typical (as with Rachel weeping for her children (Matt. 2:17-18) and the prophets foreseeing that Christ would be labeled a Nazarene (Matt. 2:23)).

Now, what is the meaning of leading "captivity captive"? In Ps. 68:18 and in Eph. 4:8 the expression is the same in the KJV: "captivity captive." Does the word captivity refer to captivity itself (i.e., the state of being in which men are ensnared) or to individual captives (i.e., those who are captured and led away by a conqueror)?

Commentators on the Psalm usually take the view that the immediate application is to the Lord's capturing a host of enemies and leading them in victory. The conquering Lord is the basic thrust of the entire Psalm. Thus Leupold renders the verse: "Thou didst ascend on high; Thou didst lead away captives; Thou didst receive gifts among men..."

However, Lenski observes: "`He made captive captivity' (verb and noun are used with reference to war captives ...) describes Jehovah (Christ) as the supreme Victor. This is not a cognate accusative or an abstract used for a concrete, `captivity' for `captured ones.' This is a plain accusative and is highly significant as such. `Captivity' itself was taken captive (Col. 2:15); the captivity in which principalities and powers, the hellish kingdom, held and tried to keep men, this was made captive..."

The question concerning Paul's meaning must be answered in such a way as to do justice both to his words and to those of David. Typological Application Made by Paul In view of the foregoing it appears to this writer that Paul is making a typological application of the Old Testament passage. Thus Leupold is correct when he states: "He (Paul) apparently regards the Lord's victorious entrance into Jerusalem as a type or figure of Christ's triumphant entry into the heavens, laden with the fruits of His encounter, fruits which He is ready to bestow on His own."

Understanding the principle of typology is important. Some abuse the principle and turn the text into allegory and fanciful sermonizing. Paul is not doing this and present-day Bible students dare not. The Bible provides a basis for typology. Such terms as "type" (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 10:6, 11), "shadow" (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5; 10:1), "copy" (Heb. 8:5; 9:23), "sign" (Matt. 12:39), "figure" (Heb. 9:9; 11:19), and "antitype" (Heb. 9:24; 1 Pet. 3:21) should help us know that "type" and "antitype" are a significant part of God's revelation to us in the Bible. Once this concept is grasped, many difficulties in Bible interpretation are solved. Typology is a means of prophetic fulfillment.

In spite of space limitations, the following extended quotation from Broomall is justified on the basis that some readers may not be sure of the meaning and legitimacy of typology: "A type is a shadow cast on the pages of O.T. history by a truth whose full embodiment or antitype is found in the N.T. revelation. Our survey is limited to a few aspects of this important subject. "That typology is a legitimate part of theological study is proved by the following considerations: (1) the word [@tupos] and its synonyms are used in such a way as to justify this approach to O.T. history. (2) the "as ... so" construction (e.g., Matt. 12:40; Luke 17:26; John 3:14) indicates a close spiritual affinity between an O.T. fact and its N.T. counterpart. (3) In many places (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:22; 2 Cor. 3:7ff.; Gal. 4:22ff.; Heb. 3:1-10:18) an obvious parallel is drawn between O.T. history and its N.T. interpretation.

"Types have the following characteristics: (1) They are thoroughly rooted in history. Jonah's experience is just as credible as the momentous event which it adumbrates (Matt. 12:40). The serpent episode belongs to the same historical category as the event which it graphically prefigures (John 3:14). (2) They are prophetic in nature. Their "terminus ad quem" is always in messianic times. Melchizedek, the historical figure (Gen. 14), becomes the spiritual prefiguration of Christ's eternal priesthood (Ps. 110; Heb. 7). (3) They are definitely designed as an integral part of redemptive history. Types are not afterthoughts cabalistically read back into the O.T. story. They retain their typical significance even after the antitype has appeared (cf. 1 Cor. 10:1-11). (4) They are Christo-centric. They all point to Christ in one way or another. If the O.T. as a whole centers in Christ (Luke 24:24,44; Acts 3:24ff.), surely the types anticipate his redemption of fallen mankind. (5) They are edificatory -- having spiritual meaning for God's people in both dispensations. The OT saint was undoubtedly edified by the typical significance of such things as circumcision (Deut. 30:6), the sacrifices (Hos. 14:2) and the coronation of Joshua (Zech. 6:9-15). Much of the O.T. (e.g., Exo. 25--40) would have only antiquarian value today if it were not for types embedded in the text." (To safeguard against extremes Broomall further states?

"A few simple distinctions will safeguard the student of typology. (1) One must distinguish between the type backed by N.T. authority and the type based on the speculation of the modern interpreter. It is not to be inferred, however, that no type is valid unless supported by specific NT authority. (2) One must distinguish between the type that definitely corroborates a doctrine and the type that has no relevance to a supposed doctrine. Jonah's expulsion from the great fish typifies Christ's resurrection (Matt. 12:40); but Jonah's restoration to the land does not necessarily typify Israel's restoration to Palestine. (3) One must distinguish between what is essential in a type and what is peripheral in the same type. Some typologies have become so bogged down in details that absurdities and puerilities have swallowed up the essential truth. (4) One must distinguish between the type that is completely fulfilled in the antitype and the type, though partly fulfilled, that still retains its typical significance for the future world. The Book of Revelation affords many illustrations of this feature of typology (e.g., Rev. 14:1).

What then is the meaning of the statement that Christ "led captivity captive" when He ascended (Eph. 4:8)? Just as the Lord led to victory in times of old, He will lead to victory in the present time. He can not be defeated. The statement in the Psalm is a review of the power of God at work in difficult situations and against great forces of evil. If the Lord was victorious in the past for His people Israel, how much more do we see of His victory when we contemplate the accomplishments of the Christ in the resurrection and ascension?

The movement of God in history is singular in nature. His development of Israel was not for Israel alone. He had in mind the coming of the Christ and His resurrection and ascension. Any captivity that Israel came through victoriously must be credited to the Lord. But any captivity that Israel faced pales in significance when compared to the captivity in which sin and death held humanity until the victory made possible by the Christ (1 Cor. 15:50-57). He has freed us from every shackle of captivity. There could be no greater event than that which He made possible. He truly has led "captivity (itself) captive."

Perhaps the Christian can appreciate this principle better if he tries to imagine life without the Christ. How great would be the bondage? We would have no purpose for life, no direction nor hope for the future. There would be no help for all the things that can be -- must be -- done by frail and failing mankind. How great would be the captivity! We could receive no forgiveness when we fail, which we all do daily. We would be held captive by our own moral shame -- how great would be the bondage! If there is nothing better for us than what is here and now, we are indeed held captive, for the shackles of death hold us. Place the Christ of the Bible into life, and everything that holds one captive is itself shackled and captured by Him.

It is tempting to quote a plethora of passages to show the greatness of this liberty in Christ, but the following one must suffice (the reader is urged to read the additional passages cited as well): "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:31-36; see also Rom. 5:18; 6:18, 22; 8:2; Gal. 4:26; 5:1).

David Hersey · #53 (**permalink**) 04-08-08, 06:17 AM

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

this is direct quote from 68:18.

the first thing here is eliminate what captivity is not. It is not the saved in Hades. They are nowhere else in any way described as being captives. In fact, inspiration tells us the truth will set us free. So what's left?

The lost in Hades could be represented here but I don't think that is what is in mind here.

I think the captivity here is the bondage of sin which captivated mankind until Jesus came and offered Himself as a sacrifice in man's place. Jesus Christ captured the captivity of sin by His sacrifice.

Bill Medart · #54 (**permalink**) 04-08-08, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ Mac

In his commentary on Acts, Gareth Reese, explains that Jesus took captivity in Hades into Heaven.
When in Bear Valley School of Biblical Studies we used Reese to study Acts, a very indepth book.
Page142-143 is where he also gives evidence for saints in heaven. using such verses as 2Cor.5:8;
Php.1:23; 2Cor.12:1-4; 1Th.4:14;

RJ Mac

I'm not familar with Reese's commentary on Acts. Have you read the commentary? I searched my usual sources for this commentary; is it a new one?

RJ Mac · #55 (**permalink**) 04-10-08, 12:31 PM

Brother Sonnie - thank you for the post, I just got back on line due to technical difficulties
I'll look it over and get back you on it. Thanks very much.

Bill here is the information on Acts by Reese, I bought it in 1988 when I was in school.
New Testament History Acts, College Press, Joplin Missouri,
Gareth L. Reese, Copyrite 1976, 6th printing 1986
Central Christian College of the Bible, Moberly Missouri.

Have read a good portion of the book and was rewarded with most everything I read.

RJ Mac

charlie62 · #56 (**permalink**) 07-09-08, 07:44 AM

If I read though all the above, I understand why Paul wrote in Titus "but avoid foolish questions and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and in vain.

If I were an unbeliever on this forum, I would have packed my bags by now. Wonder if other religions also differ like this among themselves?
Just to add the final bit of confusion: Paul says Phil. 1:23 that he longs to leave this life *and be with Christ*. And where is Christ?

The discussions are great and should continue, but let all of us remain humble and remember that we only know in part.

For my part, if on earth I am able to enter into God's glorious presence (as far as we can while in this body) where nothing else matters and time ceases to exist; I can't wait to get there and just be with Him!

The most sensible (I think) description I've ever had of hell, is of a guy called Isiaha Reed (see the link www.isaiahreed.com for the full story). In short, he was a drug dealer who was killed in a drug deal that went wrong. Doctor phoned his Mom while he was laying on autopsy table, cut open. Mom prays, God raises him up. In a recent sermon he repeatedly says: if you don't know God, don't die!
He uses the scripture that says whatever man sows, that will he reap. Says that when he died and was in hell / hades / wherever, he was without a body, but his soul was as alive as ever, and he craved sex, drugs, power and revenge as badly as ever, but could not satisfy any of those desires.
It made sense to me in that what could be a more just verdict that that? What you sow, you will reap. On the other hand, I've also seen a documentary of a pastor who had been dead for 3 days before the Lord raised him up, with a real horror story. (The Lazarus Phenomenon, it is called).

OK, now I've said a lot when initially I just wanted to leave a short comment.
Bottomline: let's stay humble. We don't know all.

Steven Rasberry · #57 (**permalink**) 07-09-08, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie62

If I read though all the above, I understand why Paul wrote in Titus "but avoid foolish questions and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and in vain.

Charlie, I am afraid you have seriously mistaken the intentions of this forum and the good people in it. We do not permit un-caring or unloving behavior.

If you read in the scriptures further about the verse you quote, you will see it is talking about the old law, not the doctrine of Christ. Regarding the doctrine of Christ, we are to study to show one's self is approved and learn what the will of God is.

2 Timothy 2:15
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

They were very kind to you an only obeying the following verse in love for your soul.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Please do not be offended but surely, if you are a believer, you would have seen that they were following the example of all spiritual teachers to help those in error to see their wrong BUT if we are wrong, we WELCOME your reasoning and teaching too because we need to know if we are wrong too since it is God's Word that matters here to our souls, not egos or pride.

So please stay and share your thoughts and the scriptures that give it authority.

I do appreciate your efforts to use scripture but please look into what I have pointed out that we are supposed to study the Word of God and Truth is never a useless controversy, only the Old Law, which does not count anylonger since Christ fulfilled it.

Acts 3:18
But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

If I were an unbeliever on this forum, I would have packed my bags by now. Wonder if other religions also differ like this among themselves?

Just to add the final bit of confusion: Paul says Phil. 1:23 that he longs to leave this life *and be with Christ*. And where is Christ?

The discussions are great and should continue, but let all of us remain humble and remember that we only know in part.

At the time this was written, "know in part" the Word of God was not completely given. Now the complete Word has been given so we can know in full. We can know what we need to, to be saved. That is why were were talking of baptism and salvation, a subject that I am sure you would agree that God wants us to know and because God loves us, wants us to know in completeness.

Please consider this wonderful verse that shows that God did not give us only part of what we need to be saved, but everything we require of Him.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

For my part, if on earth I am able to enter into God's glorious presence (as far as we can while in this body) where nothing else matters and time ceases to exist; I can't wait to get there and just be with Him!

Amen!

The most sensible (I think) description I've ever had of hell, is of a guy called Isiaha Reed (see the link www.isaiahreed.com for the full story). In short, he was a drug dealer who was killed in a drug deal that went wrong. Doctor phoned his Mom while he was laying on autopsy table, cut open. Mom prays, God raises him up. In a recent sermon he repeatedly says: if you don't know God, don't die!
He uses the scripture that says whatever man sows, that will he reap. Says that when he died and was in hell / hades / wherever, he was without a body, but his soul was as alive as ever, and he craved sex, drugs, power and revenge as badly as ever, but could not satisfy any of those desires.
It made sense to me in that what could be a more just verdict that that? What you sow, you will reap. On the other hand, I've also seen a documentary of a pastor who had been dead for 3 days before the Lord raised him up, with a real horror story. (The Lazarus Phenomenon, it is called).

OK, now I've said a lot when initially I just wanted to leave a short comment.
Bottomline: let's stay humble. We don't know all.

I appreciate your zeal for humility but this was not a complex topic. The bible is clear on the elements of the gospel and in this case, we were only pointing out scripture about baptism. It was not intended to do anything but to share what we do know from God, not discuss what we cannot know, such as how He looks in His full Spiritual glory which is, as you say, something that will not be known until we are with Him. Until then, we are to share what we do know and hear directly from Him and commanded to teach among ourselves. This teaching is the Word. To humble ourselves to what we get from the Word is truly humility. The humility Christ commands and expects of His children.

1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

2 John 1:9
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

Baptism is serious..that is why we were studying it with you. Please do not be offended, lets keep studying it.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

David Hersey · #58 (**permalink**) 07-10-08, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie62

The discussions are great and should continue, but let all of us remain humble and remember that we only know in part.

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 8:31-32
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If we continue in His word we will know the truth. Notice it says truth will set us free. Error does not set us free.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hebrews 12:14-15
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.

Someone who does not know the truth is not searching for it. Here is enough truth to get you on the right path. If you will accept this truth, the rest will fall into place.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Seek God's will and obey Him. Obey Him the way He wants to be obeyed. Do not trespass beyond what He wants. Do not leave anything out. Seek His righteousness and obey it. Serve Him and live forever.

That is truth.

Laura · #59 (**permalink**) 07-10-08, 07:33 AM

Charlotte,

You said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie62

The discussions are great and should continue, but let all of us remain humble and remember that we only know in part.

Jude 1:3 tells us the faith has been delivered once for all. Note the past tense. The faith has been completely revealed. If we know only in part, it is because of lack of study on our part.

I would also submit for your consideration that presenting the truth is not arrogant. Arrogance is found in either 1) the attitude used in presenting the truth or 2) refusing to accept the truth.

David Hersey · #60 (**permalink**) 07-11-08, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ Mac

Wouldn't it be scriptural to say, heaven and hades, since both of these hold the spirits of men, awaiting the judgment day?

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

RJ Mac · #61 (**permalink**) 07-11-08, 10:49 PM

David - Jn.3:13; "no man has ascended into heaven.." is spoken by Jesus and is stated at the
beginning of His ministry, it doesn't mean no one will go there after Jesus dies. In Rev. we see
saints in the heavenly throne under the altar, we see the 24 elders, they reign with Christ in
heaven for a 1,000 yrs. John see's saints in robes of white who have come out of the great
tribulation. There all in heaven because now the way is possible because Jesus has cleansed
the way with His own blood. See Heb.12:22ff.

Robert - yes Jesus went to Hades, called it paradise to the thief, latter Paul then goes to heaven,
calls it paradise, I believe after Jesus died the way is open and the saints enter the throne
room after they die. Even OT heros are in heaven.

I don't believe we are going to heaven for eternity but are headed for a New Earth as in Rev.21:1f
A realm where Jesus will walk with man once again, with our immortal bodies. heaven is for
the spirits of righteous men awaiting Judgment day. Hades is for spirits of wicked men awaiting
judgment day. Hell is the eternal destiny of the wicked men after judgment day. New earth
is the eternal destiny for righteous men after judgment day. It's not that complicated.

RJ

RJ Mac · #62 (**permalink**) 07-11-08, 11:14 PM

Sinking ship? It would be sinking if I said Hades = Hell. Never said that!
Hades is where the spirits of wicked men await judgment day, hell is their eternal destiny.

My claim is the spirits of the righteous are no longer in Hades as Jesus taught in Lk.16:
He took them to heaven when He ascended Ep.4:8; because now the blood
that purchased our pardon was shed and was in heaven, Jesus has prepared the place for us.
So the spirits of righteous men are in heaven awaiting their eternal reward on the new earth. Rev.21:1ff

Satan and his fallen angels are in the abyss which Peter calls TARTARUS in 2Pet.2-4
Which Jude describes in Vs.6

RJ

BVidlar · #63 (**permalink**) 07-12-08, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ Mac

Sinking ship? It would be sinking if I said Hades = Hell. Never said that!
Hades is where the spirits of wicked men await judgment day, hell is their eternal destiny.

My claim is the spirits of the righteous are no longer in Hades as Jesus taught in Lk.16:
He took them to heaven when He ascended Ep.4:8; because now the blood
that purchased our pardon was shed and was in heaven, Jesus has prepared the place for us.
So the spirits of righteous men are in heaven awaiting their eternal reward on the new earth. Rev.21:1ff

Satan and his fallen angels are in the abyss which Peter calls TARTARUS in 2Pet.2-4
Which Jude describes in Vs.6

RJ

“For David is not ascended into the heavens…” (Acts 2:34).

RJ Mac · #64 (**permalink**) 07-12-08, 11:14 AM

A man is known by the words he uses and the ears he doesn't.

Lk.16: teaches hades has two parts, paradise and torment.
Hades is not hell, hell is the eternal destiny of the wicked.
Hades and hell are not to be determined by the context.
Hades is in the bowels of the earth, where Jesus went for 3 days.

Paradise is now in heaven, confirmed by Paul, 2C.12:1ff
Jesus went to Paradise in hades, with the thief on the cross.
Things changed when Jesus ascended, now the spirits of men
could enter heaven because they were made perfect by the blood of Christ.

So if we die and go to heaven today, then no righteous enter hades only the wicked.
So you believe no one goes to heaven, because we are headed for the new earth
come judgment day. Everyone sits in Abraham's bosom waiting for that day.
I disagree. Eph.4:8;

I never said Jesus was coming to this earth again. We are going to a new earth
new means never before seen or known, its the eternal destiny. Heaven is for
spirits of righteous men, the new earth is where we live with Christ in our immortal bodies.

RJ

RJ Mac · #65 (**permalink**) 07-12-08, 11:23 AM

BVidlar - “For David is not ascended into the heavens…” (Acts 2:34).
Bad quote, "For it was not David who ascended into heaven..."
or "For David did not ascend into the heavens but he himself said.."

Peter is explaining Ps.35 and he is clarifying that it wasn't David
that was to ascend and sit by the right hand of God, but it was Christ.
He is not saying David is not there now, he is saying David wasn't the one
to fulfill this prophecy it was Jesus.

Therefore David can be there right when Peter said this.

Thanks for the comment.

RJ

RJ Mac · #66 (**permalink**) 07-12-08, 12:41 PM

2Cor.12:2-4 a man went to the third heaven - which is the throne room of God.
Also called Paradise,

Mt.12;40 as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a sea monster, so will
the Son of Man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.
Eph.4:9 He ascended what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower
parts of the earth?
Num.16:30,33; they descended alive into Sheol.

Sorry it wasn't the bowels of the earth, it was the heart of the earth, that's where Hades is.

Jesus went to Paradise in hades in heart of the earth, so did the thief on the cross.
Things changed when Jesus ascended, Eph.4:8; now the spirits of men
could enter heaven because they were made perfect by the blood of Christ.
So when we die we go to heaven today, then no righteous enter hades only the wicked.

Do you believe no one goes to heaven? Everyone sits in Abraham's bosom waiting for judgment
day then they go to heaven. But Rev.21:1; teaches new Jerusalem comes down from heaven,
to the new earth, so come judgment day we don't go to heaven but a new earth.

RJ

BVidlar · #67 (**permalink**) 07-12-08, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ Mac

Jesus went to Paradise in hades in heart of the earth, so did the thief on the cross.
Things changed when Jesus ascended, Eph.4:8; now the spirits of men
could enter heaven because they were made perfect by the blood of Christ.
So when we die we go to heaven today, then no righteous enter hades only the wicked.

Do you believe no one goes to heaven? Everyone sits in Abraham's bosom waiting for judgment
day then they go to heaven. But Rev.21:1; teaches new Jerusalem comes down from heaven,
to the new earth, so come judgment day we don't go to heaven but a new earth.

RJ

(Rev. 21:1) teaches no such thing!
If you do a word study you will find that the words, “new heavens and a new earth” are found 4 times in the Bible…(Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13, and Revelation 21:1)….You would do well to study all passages. Our “treasures” are in HEAVEN (Matt.6:19), our “hope” is in HEAVEN (Col. 1:5), our “citizenship” is in HEAVEN (Phil. 3:20), and our “inheritance” is “reserved” in HEAVEN (1 Pet. 1:3-4). NOT on earth as you claim. The earth and the heavens will be destroyed by fire (2 Pet. 3:10, 12). What is NOT destroyed is the soul of man…good or evil (Ez. 18:4) and the “heaven of heavens” (Deut.10:14, Ps. 115:16). God gave man the “lesser heavens”; if I may use that term, and the earth for man. But what God gave man; the heavens and earth, will all be destroyed by fire.
After Christ conquered both sin and death and was resurrected on the third day; after which later He ascended to be with our Father He “consecrated for us, dedicated for us, opened for us a NEW and living way, through the veil or curtain” (Heb. 10:20) which is tabernacle language saying that since Christ was the “forerunner for us” on our behalf (Heb. 6:20) we now have access to enter the holy of holies and our Father in the “heaven of heavens.” And we have John’s vision who seen the 144,000 (Rev. 7:4, 14:1), which is the whole of God’s people who represent “all Israel” (Rom. 11:26) standing before the throne and before the Lamb (Rev. 7:9) in HEAVEN.

Now really, RJ, you need to get this right…I am fearful of your teaching. We are more than happy to study with you, but unless you have a “tender and humble heart” (2 Kings 22:19) I am afraid you will never understand (Is. 65:12).

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

David Hersey · #68 (**permalink**) 07-13-08, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ Mac

So when we die we go to heaven today, then no righteous enter hades only the wicked.

That is oncorrect.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, (even) the lake of fire.
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
ASV

IF any was not found written in the book of life. Obviously there are some who will be or that statement would make no sense at all. You are mistaken RJ. Eveybody who dies goes to Hades. The saved go to paradise and the damned go to a place known in scripture as Tartarus.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible , and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This all happens at the resurrection in the last day.

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The dead cannot be in heaven and the grave at the same time. You say the saved are in heaven, Jesus says they are in the grave and will be resurrected. I'm going with what Jesus said.

Don Gelles · #69 (**permalink**) 07-15-08, 01:27 PM

As I read what R.J. is saying, it sounds like what Mark Copeland wrote in one of his studies on Life After Death. Not sure of the connection, just saying they both sound similar. Posted below is the text of Mark's sermon from his website. Again, theysound similar...

"LIFE AFTER DEATH"

Where Do The Spirits Of Believers Go At Death?

INTRODUCTION

1. Having determined from the Scriptures that man possesses a soul or
spirit which continues after death, the question now before us is
this: "Where do the spirits of believers go at death?"

2. In this lesson, I will be examining two different views:
a. One that I will call the "traditional" view, which is held by many
Christians

b. Another that I will propose as the "scriptural" view, which I
believe is more in harmony with what is revealed in the New
Testament

-- PLEASE NOTE: The use of the terms "traditional" and "scriptural"
is rather arbitrary, used only to distinguish between the two
views

[Beginning, then, with...]

I. THE "TRADITIONAL" VIEW EXPLAINED

A. STATED BRIEFLY, THIS VIEW TEACHES THE FOLLOWING...
1. When we die...
a. Our body return to the dust
b. Our spirits go to HADES, the realm of the "unseen"

2. This realm of departed spirits (i.e., Hades) is divided into
three parts...
a. PARADISE, the place of rest for the righteous
b. TARTARUS, the place of torment for the wicked
c. And a GULF, separating the two

3. During this interim period between death and the resurrection,
the righteous...
a. Are separated from God and Christ
b. For God and Christ are "in heaven", and Paradise is in Hades,
not heaven

4. Such is the state of the "disembodied spirits" until the
Resurrection
a. At which time the spirits of both the wicked and the
righteous will be united with their resurrected bodies

b. At this time will occur the Judgment, after which...
1) The RIGHTEOUS will spend eternity with God
2) The WICKED will spend eternity in "HELL" (Grk., gehenna)

B. THE SCRIPTURAL JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS VIEW...
1. Is based heavily upon what we read in Lk 16:16-31
a. I.e., the story of the rich man and Lazarus
b. Notice especially verses 22-26

2. Lk 23:43 is also offered as support
a. Where we read of the account of Jesus and the thief on the
cross
b. Both of whom would be in PARADISE that very day following
their deaths

3. That this PARADISE was not in HEAVEN where God dwells is based
upon Jesus' statement in Jn 20:17
a. These words of Jesus were made three days after promising
the thief they would BOTH be in PARADISE

b. Yet Jesus had not YET ascended to the Father!

c. Suggesting, therefore, that PARADISE was not HEAVEN (or IN
heaven)!

4. As further evidence that PARADISE is not in HEAVEN, appeal is
made to Ac 2:29-35

a. Concerning CHRIST...
1) His soul was not to be left in HADES (the realm of the
dead, which included PARADISE)