Originally Posted by tux

Hi Robert!

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the use of that passage here. For your consideration:



In 5 and 6, Paul is describing his self-righteous qualifications. In 7-9, he admits these things are useless for salvation, as this is only gained through grace and faith (sole fide! Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."). 10, 11 he looks forward to resurrection by this salvation - gained not by works.

Now in 12, he has not yet (as none of us have) attained
1.) perfection (will come through Christ),
2.) fellowship of sharing in His sufferings,
3.) becoming like Him in His death
2.) resurrection (again, gained through Christ)
These are the things from which Jesus saved us, and accepted us (and for the glory of the Father, i.e.:


God has called us "heavenward" to perfect us - for resurrection - to remain with Him forever - to glorify Him. His glory is the ultimate goal.


As an aside, note 16, "...live up to what we have already attained." Live up to the standard of our calling, and don't blaspheme I haven't addressed any other arguments for loss of salvation, but that one, in context, seems to put a tiny torpedo into it. (Doesn't conditional salvation smell a bit like works-righteousness? We are justified by grace in faith, but if this can be lost, we must constantly work to maintain it. Now, I am by no means advocating excessive and ungodly abuse of the liberty Paul addresses in Romans 14 - that to me would support my arguement indicating such a person was never saved in the first place. A righteous true disciple will be in a process of perfection and disciple by the Holy Spirit...stumbles may occur, but...)

Again, for me, more reading and studying to be done. No scholar I.

Originally Posted by Steven Rasberry

Tux,
You are confusing the works of the Old Law with the righteous works that God prepared for His people, that they should be active in. There is no torpedo here, sorry. You need to look more carefully into what you say. No one here said we earn our salvation, it is only our duty to be like God, which includes being active.

Originally Posted by tux

Steven,

My remark was not that we earn our salvation (rather, grace through faith per above), but the loss-of-salvation position would seem to make maintenance of our salvation - not gaining it - contingent on continuing these works. What I stated in the beginning of the thread is if these righteous works are not naturally (by the Holy Spirit) forthcoming, then the salvation which should be producing them is not lost, it is in fact, false.

Doug

Originally Posted by Lee Parish

The Bible is FULL of examples of Godly people rejecting God for many reasons. Take one as an example 2 Timothy 4:10 Paul said, "...Demas forsook me having loved the present world." You would have a hard time convincing me that Paul an apostle would allow a man who did not love God and had evil intentions to accompany him and help him in his trials (see Philemon 1:24) . Demas at one time was saved he at one time was in contact with that saving grace that only God can supply. But something happened to Demas, perhaps the intense trials that Paul experienced were too much for him. Or perhaps he decided that more fun was to be had, he "loved the present world", rather than having a love for that which is to come. Demas fell.

Simon the sorcerer is also an excellent study. Acts 8. Simon was a deceiver who converted after having seen the true power of God, demonstrated through Philip. The text says "Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed" Acts 8:13. Once Simon realized how the power was transferred (by the laying on of the apostles' hands) he desired to buy them. He was rebuked by Peter. Acts 8:22 "Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you." Please notice that Peter did not tell Simon that he must be baptized again because he wasn't really saved in the first place. He told him to repent, and pray that the Lord would forgive him why? Because the intentions of his heart would lead him to hell.

Simon was saved he continued with Philip who by the way had gifts (surely Philip would have known if the man traveling with him was saved or not), Simon sinned (at which time he had separated himself from God, and from His saving power), Peter rebuked him and Simon repented, at which point he reunited himself with God.

Many more examples can be given but time prevents a proper treatment. I will leave with one more scripture Galatians 5:1-4. Specifically verse 4 "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." KJV says "fallen from grace."

If it were possible for Christians of a Jewish heritage to fall away from grace in the first century, it is possible for ANY person, to fall from Grace in any century.

Originally Posted by Lee Parish

I, like Don, am not in a habit of quoting myself , but I will this time anyway

Originally Posted by D. White

I like putting it simple...either obey the Gospel and live with God when Christ comes back or deny Him and be lost. And that goes for those who have been added to the church of Christ...because not everyone that says "Lord, Lord" will enter therein!

No OSAS and just because you have been added to the body doesn't get you in either so some will be lost with those who are already lost.