About the Catholic religion...I hope I posted this in the right place.

I was raised Catholic, but left the Catholic church 17 years ago and truely believe it to be false, but my parents are SO very catholic...more catholic than the pope himself I think ...but here's my question:

I have been studying for a short time now, about the question, "can dead Christians pray for us?" and I can not find anywhere in scripture the theory of "pergetory" that catholics hold to...which I won't bc I believe that to be false. But does anyone know where they get this from?? The fact that our [earthly people] can pray for someone who has passed on and somehow the prayers will "help" the lost in torment escape hell? My mother is always telling me to "pray for those in torment so they can get out of there" but every time I disagree with her ( or ANY catholic for that matter) the answer is always the same.." you woun't find it in YOUR bible because it was removed". And that statemnet alwasy burns me up bc they imply MY Bible is false

Can someone shed some light on this for me? Does anyone know what these misising books of the Bible are? And is there anywhere in scripture that says our earthly prayers will help those passed on in torment get out? bc I don't think so.

Thank you !

thank you for your reply Butch

I agree there is no scriptural teaching on praying for the dead and the pryers would somehow effect their eternity...but again, when I say that [ to a catholic] I get the response that it's not in my Bible so I won't find it...it was taken out

Does anyone know which books were taken out? or where I can find this information?
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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

From my notes (and from their own books)...

No Belief in Purgatory in Early Church

The New Testament is completely silent concerning Purgatory, which is now a very necessary part of Catholic doctrine, and Catholic authorities admit that the New Testament church did not believe in it in the following language: ‘almost as old as the Church” (Externals of the Catholic Church, 351). “Still the doctrine was not fully established in the West (that is, among Roman Catholics—O.C.L.), till the time of Gregory the Great” (Cath. Dic., 706). That means that it was “not fully developed” before 590 AD! Note: it was “developed”! This same author states that “belief in Purgatory lay dormant in the primitive church to a certain extent” (p. 704), and that such very important “Fathers” as Augustine and Chrysostom did not believe it!

Their stock claim with reference to all unscriptural things in the Catholic Church is, that they were taught by the Apostles, but just not written in the New Testament (about like all thier doctrine). Is it conceivable that that could be true with reference to doctrine of Purgatory, and these men knew nothing about it?

Admit They Wrest Scriptures to Prove Purgatory!
“We would appeal to these general principles of Scripture, rather than to particular texts often alleged in proof of Purga*tory. We doubt if they contain an explicit and direct reference to it” (Cath. Dic., 704).

Admit Their Teaching Only Presumption
“So we presume all Catholics who die to be in Purgatory; although it may often seem more probable for a particular soul that it is in heaven or hell” (Plain Facts, 125). There would be no reason, according to Catholic claims, to pray, say Masses and burn candles for one in hell, and there would be no need to go to this “expense” for those already in heaven, so they presume all are in purgatory in order to defraud all Catholic families!

Myth About Treasury of Merit and Relief of Souls in Purgatory
“This common use of indulgences led theologians to draw out more fully the theory on which the doctrine of indulgences rests, and thus, just at the beginning of the eleventh century the phrase ‘Treasury of Merit’ occurs” (Cath. Die., Addis & Arnold, 443).

One of the most lucrative doctrines of the Catholic Church is that about this “Treasury of Merit.” The Catholic Encyclo*pedia in discussing Purgatory, speaks of applying to the souls of the dead “the superabundant satisfaction of Christ and his saints.” By this means the Catholic Church robs many widows and orphans. This, as everything about Catholic doc*trine and practice, is represented to the laity as a certainty, and rather than allow the dead to languish millions of years in torment they will pay and pay! I know a case in which a family of six orphans were bereft of both father and mother. The Catholic Bible says to “visit the fatherless and the widows in their tribulation” (James 1: 27; Douay Version), and the priest did, and sold them a big, beautifully engraved certificate, giving them “all the benefits of the Holy Land” to get the mother out of Purgatory, ON THE INSTALLMENT PLAN!! The understanding was, that they would take out another like it when this one was finally paid for, to get the father out!!!! Jesus speaks of the “hypocrites” who “devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers” (Matt. 23:14).

“The Church which has received from Christ the power to forgive sins, both as to the guilt and the penalty (when did this happen???), and who has the distribution of the spiritual treasures accumulated by our Lord and the members of His mystical body, can satisfy the claims of divine justice by taking from the superabundant satisfactions of Christ and His saints and applying them to sinners” (Legislation on the Sacraments in the New Code of Canon Law, 273).

Saints May Not Hear, They Admit
“And I do not undertake to prove to you that when we pray before a picture or a statue of a saint, that that saint infallibly hears or knows what we are saying, or even what we are doing” (Plain Facts, 170).

“The Church does not pretend to know how much of Purgatory God remits by a partial indulgence of so many days, years, etc.” (Question Box, 1913 Ed., 413).

“The Catholic Church does not pretend to know anything about the duration of the suffering of Purgatory” (ibid., 567).

“The Catholic Church does not claim to directly apply the infinite merits of Jesus Christ and the superabundant merits of His saints to the souls in Purgatory, over whom she has no jurisdiction . . . a Catholic may gain a plenary indulgence and offer it up for a particular soul in Purgatory, but God is not pledged to apply it” (Ibid., 414).

Mass May Be Useless—”Absolute Ignorance”
“We do not pretend to know how far God applies the infinite merits of the sacrifice of the Mass to either the living or the dead” (Ibid., 1913 Ed., 454).

“ … the Catholic Church claims no jurisdiction over souls in the other world, and professes absolute ignorance regard*ing God’s particular application of the infinite merits of the passion and death of His Son to the souls in Purgatory” (Ibid., 460-461).

Dwayne here...The bottom line is when asked all I get is "well that is what I believe and have been taught. But when shown Bible scripture which proves them wrong (not me proving anyone wrong as some claim, but God's Word)...they won't accept it and call God a liar.

When someone dies, (like we have stated elsewhere) the body goes back to the erth, the spirit goes back to God and the soul goes the place prepared for it...either paradise or torment awaiting judgement. Of course, with where the soul goes can be determined after that.

If you like I can email you a scriptual "picture" to help you uderstand.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

The 27 books of the NT were set fairly early on. Iraneaus did a great deal of writing on texts that were inspired or not. You could do some research on the "biblical cannon" to learn how it came together. You will see a lot of support that the 27 books in use today are all that was intended to be considered inspired.

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Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

Thanks, Robert...let us examine where they do get there teaching...you mentioned it!

Primary support for this doctrine comes from 2nd Maccabees 12:39-45. It is one of the Apocryphal books found in the Catholic Bible. The word “apocrypha” denotes “any writings...of doubtful authenticity or authorship.”

These are I & II Esdras, Tobit, Judith, The Rest of Esther, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch with
the Epistle of Jeremiah, The Song of the Three Children, The Story of Susanna, The Idol Bel
and the Dragon, The Prayer of Manasses, and I & II Maccabees.

We reject the apocryphal books because: 1. They were never included in the Hebrew canon
of the Old Testament. 2. They were not considered authoritative by Jesus or His
apostles. The inspired New Testament writers quoted from practically all of the books of the
Old Testament, but never from any of the apocryphal books. 3. These books do not
possess the qualities of inspiration. Many apocryphal books describe fictitious events.
They contain historical, chronological and geographical errors. Finally, they contradict
themselves as well as the Old Testament.

Catholics appeal to 2 Maccabees 12:42 in defense of Purgatory, which states, “it is a good
and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.” The absurdity of this argument can be seen from the
context. It contradicts what they are trying to prove. The dead spoken of in 2nd Maccabees
were guilty of idolatry. Catholicism teaches that idolatry is a mortal sin leading directly to hell,
and no praying can help this state. Yet, amazingly, this passage is used as a proof text
for purgatory. What a contradiction (Heb 9:27)!

But even if you read the text in 2 Maccabees, you will not find anything there that speaks of
the intermediate state of suffering for those who died with venial sins, still owing punishment for
those sins. It mentions prayer for the dead, but one must infer the entire doctrine of purgatory. It
must be noted also that the individuals mentioned in the text who had died were guilty
of idolatry. According to Catholicism, that was a mortal sin. If you die being guilty of mortal sins,
you go directly to hell and prayers cannot help you at all. Yet this passage is used as a proof
text for purgatory. What a contradiction!

We reject the doctrine because it is not found in the Bible. Catholics make attempts to defend
purgatory by referring to a number of passages in the New Testament. However, the Holy
Scriptures do not mention either the word or the concept. The only way one can find support for
this doctrine is to twist and pervert God’s word and read into the Bible things that simply are not
there (Luke 16:26; 1 Corinthians 3:6-15).

Sources:

Loraine Boettner, “Purgatory,”
Baker’s Dictionary of Theology, ed. Everett F. Harrison, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, c1960, 1975), p. 430;
Greg Litmer, “Purgatory,” Catholicism Examined, May, 1984,
p. 33-37.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

wonderful! thank you so much everyone for this info. I'll do some research and probably be back with more questions ...thank you!

..that Maccabees BCV was the one that just got thrown at me this past weekend...and of course with the added "well of course you don't know, it's not in your Bible) so thank you!

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

There were many books written by numerous religious, inspired and non-inspired during the same time. Ever notice how much it warns about false teaching in the bible? It was there because there was a lot of false epistles and false apostles running around.

That being said, the faithful had numerous copies of the inspired texts made. There are hundreds of copies that were made so the congregations could study them. That is why you can trust your bible so much because by the vast amount of copies, we can see the ones that had information deleted, changed or twisted. If 5 were different from the 500 other copies which were identical, which would you go by?

The men who bound these books and epistles were not inspired any more than I would be if I put a binding on letters you wrote.

Additional books cannot be in the bible because they are not inspired. IF by chance we did come across some of the other inspired letters by someone such as one of the apostles, well I would be happy to accept them because I have no doubt anything would change regarding doctrine since what we have for the most part is repeated again in various ways to assist in understanding.

Let me offer the following....

Apocrypha means "Hidden". The Catholic Church while accepting these books does not consider them inspired. Some of these book 1-4 Maccabees is excellent history and is a useful read. Many non Catholics think that the Apocrypha only include those books found in some of the study bibles in the section between the Old and New Testament labeled Apocrypha. This is not the case, there are many, many more books used by the Catholic that are missing in this "section".

There are Old Testament apocryphal books, between the Testament books, and New Testament books. A sampling would included: (any online catholic encyclopedia will list them for you)
The Book of Henoch
Assumption of Moses
Book of the Secrets of Henoch
Fourth Book of Esdras
Apocalypse of Baruch
The Apocalypse of Abraham
The Apocalypse of Daniel
Book of Jubilees or Little Genesis
The Book of Jannes and Mambres
Fourth Book of Machabees
Sibylline Oracles
Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
Gospel of St. Matthew
Arabic Gospel of the Infancy
Gospel of Gamaliel
Gospel According to the Egyptians
Gospel of St. Peter
Gospel of St. Philip

And many more. I left several out. These books are used for study and do form the foundation for some of their beliefs. Some of the books do contain some very useful history. The Catholic Church breaks them down into different periods and by ethnicity (Jewish... etc.). In study with a Catholic, one does not have to know all of these books, but an understanding of them will make it possible to reveal the origin of some of their false doctrines.

Kindly,
Don

P.S.
It is not just the Catholics that use these books.

P.S.S
Bel and the Dragon is an excellent read

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

I wonder if they accept the gospel of Judas...since it isn't in the Bible.

I wish our expert was here to answer that...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

thanks for the tip I"m not studying with a catholic, but my parents are more catholic than the pope himself ( ) and EVERY time we talk about Jesus my mother has to chime in with "we're praying for you Barb...that you find our way back to the true church" I"m tired of hearing it...but...my parents MEAN well, I have no ill feelings towards them at ALL It just gets old to hear it over and over again ( from my mother) and I"d like to study it further.

Thank you !!

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

I would reply..."I am finding the way to Christ and when you can show me through God's Word that the pope is the head of the church that Christ built, we can talk."

It always seems to work for me with 99% of them.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Don...

you mentioned others use these books too, who? My major "disagreements" are with my parents who are catholic and my dear friend who is a JW. I want to know all I can to defend the TRUTH, thank you!

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

I didn't even know there WAS a gospel of Judas ...as well as these other books listed above....seems I"ve learned alot today, thank you! It's alot to take in and you know what bothers me? I was RAISED catholic...went to a catholic school all my life, church every sunday growing up...and never once owned a Bible or ever heard of these books How is that??? Now...I know my parents were not very "religious" growing up...they are completely different people now, but still.... looking back you would think the "TRUE" church would at least make sure their children studied the Bible, right?

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

The church is told by the Word of God to be like those in Berea and "search the scritpures to see if what we are told is truth"...

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

...but catholics are told to listen to there "fathers" and do not question. If one dosn't question as to be sure, how can one know they are getting the truth?? That is why we welcome questions and many denominations don't want to.

I guess I will have to get out my notes on the other group you mentioned, also.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

that's a good one How do you respond when they throw Matt.16:13-20 at you? I have a friend who is catholic that gave that verse to me. I don't understand it the way she ( or catholics ) do. ..but your thoughts would be helpful

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

good point...I asked my mother once why she doesn't study Scripture, she said reads it everyday, but that's why they have the Pope, HE teaches and studies so they [ catholics] don't have to...she said it's too confusing so the Pope studies it.

and yes...I"d love to go over your other notes as well

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24

Then tell her this, also...

Roman Catholicism Not in the Bible
“By what right do you teach doctrines not found in the Bible?”

“Because the origin of our faith is not in the Bible alone, but the Church which gives us both the written and the unwritten word” (Question Box, 75).

The Bible a Dead Letter—Must Be Explained, Catholics Say
To be consistent, Catholics should never quote from the Bible, for they say none but the clergy can understand it! It, then would be worthless as proof. “The Scripture indeed is a divine book but it is a dead letter, which has to be explained” (Our Priesthood, 155).

“A dead and speechless book” (Question Box, 67).

...and then we find this: Their Own New Testament Contradicts Them
“God’s word to us is something alive, full of energy” (Heb. 4:12, Knox’s translation).

Catholic New Testament Says We May Understand
“How that, according to revelation, the mystery has been made known to me, as I have written above in a few words; as you reading, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3: 3, 4). In this statement Paul plainly says that if we will read what inspired men wrote we will understand as much as they.

Must Have Holy Spirit to Understand Bible, They Say
“To understand and explain such things there is always required the ‘coming’ of the same Holy Spirit” (Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, 277).

I wonder how anybody could believe that it is impossible to understand God when He speaks. That sort of suggestion is a favorite with all false teachers, who are stealing God’s word from the people (Jer. 23: 30). Do they mean to imply that God could not make Himself plain, or do they mean that God would not make Himself plain? Perhaps they would like for us to believe that they are capable of express*ing themselves more clearly than God! They are really taking the word of God out of the hearts of men as the devil is said to do (Luke 8:12).

The Pope Explains and Still We Cannot Understand! So Where Dos That Leave The Pope...He Does Not Understand As Well!
“Undoubtedly your reason would never find out such a mystery (the Trinity—O.C.L.), which even when known by revelation is still utterly beyond the comprehension of man” (Question Box, 38).

This presumes that we cannot understand God, and that when the Pope tries to help God out of the difficulty, by telling us what God tried to say, that we cannot understand the Pope! If this is true, the human family IS in a predica*ment! It, they say, is utterly beyond the comprehension of man, and since the Pope is a man, he does not understand!

Really, if God tried to tell us something through the inspired men of the Bible and failed, we should not expect Him to have any better luck by using the popes. It resolves itself into this blasphemous proposition: God failed!! But that is a lie and we know that so when God isn't lying then man is the only one left!!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

The Greek Orthodox Church (Several different branches) and Jews, just to name a few.

Some of the books are excellent history. For example, Maccabees shows us what happened during the intertestamental period. The revolt by the Jews and the war that was fought is very much a part of Jewish history. By the way... this is where Hanukkah comes from. It is only found in Maccabees.

Kindly,
Don

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

huh...interesting, thank you Don...I did not know that

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Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised. PROV.31:30

And so Lord, I ask you... "Point out anything in me that offends you and lead me along the path of everlasting life." Psalms 139:24