Branches or what?? - Christian Forum - Bible Forum - Christian Religion Bible Study Forum

D. White · #1 05-03-08, 11:06 PM

Let us begin a discussion on the issue of the vine and branches...

I thank Laura for bringing this matter to my attention as I am well aware of the denominations that like to use this passage to prove the point of denominations being the branches of the True Vine (Christ). BUT, I must ask that we go slowly and look at the passage as it iw written...first who is speaking, who is being spoken to, and what is the meaning of the verses by which the speaker is speaking? We can easily see then what is truly being put forth here.

So let us first read the passage, shall we?

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Now let us start with a few questions...the simplest one of all...was He speaking to individuals (as we can especially note in verses 5-7) or was He speaking to groups of denominations (whose leaders hand't been born yet)? Because I cannot find wher He addressed a group, but ONLY individuals.

Laura · #2 05-03-08, 11:12 PM

Well, since the church had not yet been established when Jesus spoke these words, denominations did not yet exist either. There is no way that Jesus could have been speaking of denominations because the concept had not even been invented!

D. White · #3 05-03-08, 11:17 PM

Exactly! The denominations forget to admit that Christ was speaking to His APOSTLES...and they (throughout the New Testament) only followed Christ and they didn't start anything on their own.

ho'adelphos · #4 12-06-08, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. White

...snipped...

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

...snipped...

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

...snipped...

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

...snipped...

Jesus said that He is the vine, and that you are the branches. Later in the passage He mentions the Holy Spirit...and a emphasis on bearing fruit. In the KJV YE never refers to a building or organization - YE always means a plurality of persons, people...as in every one of you.

The denominations claim that they as an institution, invoking the clergy/laity heresy, are the branches and that converts/christians are their fruit.

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1 Peter 2:5-10 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The royal priesthood as living stones as a holy nation as a peculiar people...oops, there is the people word again...therefore not institutions or councils or committees.

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Matthew 7:13-20 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 12:33-37 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luke 6:43-45 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Matthew 13:18-23 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Romans 7:4-5 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Galatians 5:19-25 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

In the passage of John 15, Jesus was speaking to human individuals, each chosen by Jesus to be His witness of His life, death, and resurrection. He also chose Saul (Paul), who did not witness His life...demonstrating that the bearing of fruit is not just for the chosen 12...but for all disciples of Christ until the end of time. Thus, it is individual christians who are the branches, who bear fruit ...and that the fruit is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Our fruit is not other christians, but the fruit of the Holy Spirit within us (Gal 5) that in turn draws men to Christ.

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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 5:14-16 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:6-7 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

D. White · #5 12-06-08, 07:40 PM

If it is the INDIVIDUAL that is the branch then where does the denomiinations get the idea that a "denomination" is the branch?? Anyone!??!!

ho'adelphos · #6 12-09-08, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. White

If it is the INDIVIDUAL that is the branch then where does the denomiinations get the idea that a "denomination" is the branch?? Anyone!??!!

The same way they get all of their false doctrine. They read into the biblical text - eisengesis - what they want to believe, motivated by a refusal to completely and unconditionally surrender to Christ.

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Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own ideas, reading into the text. This is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.

Here are some scriptures dealing with the issue, beginning first with those showing that we are to obey Christ's commands, and finally that there will be those who refuse to obey while still claiming to be christian:

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Matthew 15:8-14 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:9-10 As the Father has loved me, I also have loved you: abide in my love. 10 If ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 2:3-6 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him verily the love of God is perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him. 6 He that says he abides in him ought, even as *he* walked, himself also so to walk.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

tann3100 · #7 12-09-08, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ho'adelphos

The same way they get all of their false doctrine. They read into the biblical text - eisengesis - what they want to believe, motivated by a refusal to completely and unconditionally surrender to Christ.

Very true my friend. Blessed will be your discussions to bring forth fruit from your searching.

Take care and build upon each other and pull one another up each time you he poureth upon you something pour it out also likewise that the fruit will grow and remember it is not you who came up with it but if it is poured from the Father through the Son it will bring forth fruit in His name who is the all not of your own account.

Bless you all

Brycges · #8 12-09-08, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. White

If it is the INDIVIDUAL that is the branch then where does the denomiinations get the idea that a "denomination" is the branch?? Anyone!??!!

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Many of the denominations will pray to receive wisdom from God before they preach, many of the Baptist preachers down here, one being Olive Baptist Church believes that God talks to him. so its that warped mind that gives heed to doctrine of demons, and all other doctrines that are not from Christ.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Denominations love to explain away scripture, they use their schooling to explain and twist the Word of God to make it mean what they want it to. Like they do with Baptism, Falling away, gifts of the Holy Spirit.

mountravlr · #9 12-09-08, 03:26 PM

There's no question that individuals are in view. And there is no question that only one kind of fruit is produced by that vine.

D. White · #10 12-13-08, 12:55 PM

So then tell me...what church do we belong to? I heard it said that the church is within us...or "we go to church"...????

mountravlr · #11 12-13-08, 01:53 PM

We belong to the church to which we are "added", Acts 2:47.
That is, the "blood bought church", Acts 20:28.
The "church we go to is the 'assembly'", Heb. 10:25.

D. White · #12 12-14-08, 08:27 AM

Does it have a name? Is it given by man or God?

The main thing is we have so many in the world that figure they can just take anything out of the Bible and call a "church" that name and it is the church but it is two elements...the name AND what we do! We cannot do anything and everything under the sun and call it worship to God and then call ourselves the church.

mountravlr · #13 12-14-08, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. White

Does it have a name? Is it given by man or God?

The main thing is we have so many in the world that figure they can just take anything out of the Bible and call a "church" that name and it is the church but it is two elements...the name AND what we do! We cannot do anything and everything under the sun and call it worship to God and then call ourselves the church.

Quite. "What we do" may be "forced" into "churchianity", such as forcing religion around a building, a pulpit and a preacher. But this is not NT pattern teaching.
The closest we can come to a "title" seems to come from Matt. 16:18, i.e. "My church". From this we can accurately call her, the bride, His "church", the Lord's church. Rom. 16:16 provides an example, but does not provide a "title" per se. So the best way to understand what the NT teaches us is that there are descriptives but no "title" as the denominations have suggested

D. White · #14 12-14-08, 07:49 PM

Exactly! We could put up a sign and have it say that "assembly of God" for that is what we are, BUT you would those of that denomination come in expecting their type of worship. You could put up a sign that says "church of God" and be right, BUT you would have those of that denomination show up wanting their type of service.

Paul gave a simple name being the church od Christ and it is what we use ONLY because we must be able to distinguish ourselves from denominations and al the "so-called non-denominations" (even though they are denominaitons anyway being one of many). But the church that Christ began, died for and is coming back for is not a denomination because it is only one of one!

Don Gelles · #15 12-23-08, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountravlr

We belong to the church to which we are "added", Acts 2:47.
That is, the "blood bought church", Acts 20:28.
The "church we go to is the 'assembly'", Heb. 10:25.

There are many biblical designations that can be used and would be scriptural. They have been presented in previous posts.

Kindly,
Don

David Hersey · #16 12-28-08, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountravlr

So the best way to understand what the NT teaches us is that there are descriptives but no "title" as the denominations have suggested

The words "church of Christ" are in no way a title. It is simply a designation of what it is and who owns it.

The body of Christ is the church (Colossians 1:18).

The body is "of Christ" (Colossians 2:17).

A group of the Lord's people is a body of Christians. A body of Christians is the church. Therefore a congregation of the Lord's people is the body/church of Christ. It's not a name, it's a designation which identifies a group and who owns them.

This is of course something denominational people do not understand at all.

D. White · #17 12-29-08, 06:47 PM

Of course not...and for some that do, that is why they have added the "words" church of Christ to thier title (i.e. 1st Baptist church of Christ)...they know there is soemthing in a name and they know who owns the church that He bought with His blood but all they think is the only thing necessary is to have the "title" on the building. They also think that is what the true church is...the name on the building is what makes us seperate.

What makes us seperate is the way we serve Him! That is the defining factor. We cannot serve Him in different ways and everyone is doing it their way and then say, "We are serving the same God" and doing it differently and say that He is pleased with all the different ways when He said in His Word we are to be of one accord...and that is not the car!

ho'adelphos · #18 05-05-09, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura

Well, since the church had not yet been established when Jesus spoke these words, denominations did not yet exist either. There is no way that Jesus could have been speaking of denominations because the concept had not even been invented!

I am taking this at face value. I've read this many times to make sure I am understanding what you are saying: It is not possible for Jesus to speak simultaneously in regard to current and future events? I see His statement as both addressing the then current intended situation and prophetically define the rise of denominations - also stated in His Parable of the Seed & Tares.

Jesus knew all along that denominations will arise: who else will be the goats He divides from His sheep, or separates the wheat from the tares, gathering the tares into barns and burnt, where else are those who enter in by the broad gate to go? That is the purpose of denominations, to be barns for the weeds, and to gather the goats while His sheep gather with Him in His Church that only He built...the churches of Christ. Denominations are the broad gate, the barns for weeds, and the herds of goats. The churches of Christ are the narrow gate, the wheat of the harvest, and the flock of His sheep - His body, His Church, His Bride.

mountravlr · #19 05-05-09, 12:15 PM

"Denomination", by definition is a "division", and if given any dignity in the spiritual arena does great violence to the inspired teaching of 1 Cor. 1:10.

ho'adelphos · #20 05-05-09, 04:14 PM

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1 Corinthians 1:5-13 hat in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I am a Baptist; I am a Catholic; I am a Presbyterian; I am a Methodist; I am a Pentacostal; etc.; etc. - sounds too much like the passage above. Denominationalism clearly is condemned in this passage and others. It is an expression of self-determination which is the opposite of submission - the same issues that Satan and his fellow demons have, a fundamental refusal to obey - a mentality of infectious rebellion. Notice the last part of verse 12 "... and I of Christ". That is the only name we are to take. Being the bride of Christ, we are to take only His name. To refuse to take only His name is an insult to His divine majesty as the Bridegroom...the Son of God.

Now, identifying what denominations are as barns full of tares or herds of goats does no harm to the Word of God than does identifying or dignifying Satan for what he is and does and his function in God's plan.

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Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In Matt 13 in the Parable of the Seed and Tares, Jesus clearly tells us not to pull or root up the tares, because in doing so we will kill some of the wheat. We are told to let them be, to grow among us until the day of the harvest. As much as we would like to eliminate all the weeds, to rid the Earth of denominations so that the only true church of Christ stands...we are told to leave them be, they have a purpose. Jesus said that many will try to enter the kingdom of heaven through the wide or broad gate that actually leads to destruction

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Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The goats sincerely think that they are sheep! The sad thing is that they do not know it until it is too late.

Identifying denominations for what they are, and the portions of scripture that describes them does in no way dignify them. God knew before hand that denominations will in fact exist, and planned for that and predetermined that the people of those denominations will be gathered into barns as tares to be burned. Those barns have a purpose as described by scripture.

People of the denominations use the phrase "going to church".

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Matthew 15:18-19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

The denominations called the building they meet in the church, thus they go to church. The churches of Christ do not go to church, they are the church - we assemble ourselves together either from house-to-house, or more common in the USA in a special building purposely build for us to assemble in - in the churches of Christ the building is never church, the church meets in the building. The denominational phrase "going to church" must never be found upon the lips of a member of the Lord's Church and would be a sin according to

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2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Goats go to church; while the sheep are the church - that is a key factor in distinguishing who we are.

mountravlr · #21 05-05-09, 05:32 PM

Quite. However if "church" means "assembly", Heb. 10:25, the "meeting together", then going to "it" is not particularly objectionable, as long as the meeting place is not substituted, as you have suggested.

ho'adelphos · #22 05-05-09, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountravlr

Quite. However if "church" means "assembly", Heb. 10:25, the "meeting together", then going to "it" is not particularly objectionable, as long as the meeting place is not substituted, as you have suggested.

The Greek word in Heb 10:25 translated as "assembling" is Strong's G1997:
ἐπισυναγωγή
episunagōgē
ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'
From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.

Therefore assembly and church are never synonymous. Church is the ekklēsia, the people themselves. The church assembles; the assembly is not the church, but rather what the church is doing.

http://www.etymonline.com/ is a great online etymology resource: church is ... ready for a total shock?

Quote:

Church - O.E. cirice "church," from W.Gmc. *kirika, from Gk. kyriake (oikia) "Lord's (house)," from kyrios "ruler, lord." For vowel evolution, see bury. Gk. kyriakon (adj.) "of the Lord" was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Gk.-to-Gmc. progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it was probably used by W.Gmc. people in their pre-Christian period. Also picked up by Slavic, via Gmc. (cf. O.Slav. criky, Rus. cerkov). Romance and Celtic languages use variants of L. ecclesia. Slang church key for "can or bottle opener" is from 1950s. Church-mouse, proverbial in many languages for its poverty, is 1731 in Eng. ...

Kirch - c.1200, northern England and Scot. dial. form of church, from O.N. kirkja "church," from O.E. cirice (see church).

Whether of Greek, Germanic, or Celtic-Pictish of northern England/Scotland, the primary meaning was a place of worship, used by pagans prior to the entry of christianity in the region. Even in the original Greek form kyriake bears no relation to ekklēsia. The modern usage among denominations going back for several generations forces kyriake into the place of ekklēsia in the greek texts....the word church is forced upon us by the translators, the thus stuck with it. By insisting that the word church be used according to the actual underlying greek ekklēsia, we are forcing the biblical definition of ekklēsia onto the pagan English word church.

Thus, when someone of the denominations use the term "going to church" they are using the original meaning of the word - going to a place of worship. We of the churches of Christ insist on the biblical meaning and use of the ekklēsia for the word church - the people are the church (not the building). The denominations use the word church according to its original pagan meaning, which we of the churches of Christ use the word church according to the true biblical meaning of the biblical texts.

KWorden · #23 05-06-09, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ho'adelphos

People of the denominations use the phrase "going to church". The denominations called the building they meet in the church, thus they go to church. The churches of Christ do not go to church, they are the church - we assemble ourselves together either from house-to-house, or more common in the USA in a special building purposely build for us to assemble in - in the churches of Christ the building is never church, the church meets in the building. The denominational phrase "going to church" must never be found upon the lips of a member of the Lord's Church and would be a sin according to Goats go to church; while the sheep are the church - that is a key factor in distinguishing who we are.

Charles, while I totally agree with what you've said I would fall short calling it sinful to use such an expression. The common English language uses the word "church" to describe a meeting place or place of worship. I agree that it isn't the same biblical definition and it waters down/devalues the true definition of what it means to christians. If a christian told me they were "going to church" I would understand that they were going to worship with the saints. If someone from a denomination told me they were "going to church" I would understand they were going to a brick and mortar building. In the context of who is saying it I could distinguish which meaning to apply to the phrase.

You have another thread entitled "Born and raised in the church of Christ." Someone who didn't know better might think that you were born a member of the church of our Lord which you were not. They might think it was a birth right within the churches of Christ to automatically include newborn infants into the membership (goats believe this). Or, they might think you were "saved" when you were born and then baptized at age 14 (goats believe this too). You were born an innocent, unaccountable soul and the Lord added you to the church when you obeyed the gospel at 14 years old as you described. Since I've read many of your posts and am well aquainted with your beliefs, I knew this statement was coming from a brother. Based on that context I knew exactly what you meant by it.

ho'adelphos · #24 05-06-09, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWorden

Charles, while I totally agree with what you've said I would fall short calling it sinful to use such an expression. The common English language uses the word "church" to describe a meeting place or place of worship. I agree that it isn't the same biblical definition and it waters down/devalues the true definition of what it means to christians. If a christian told me they were "going to church" I would understand that they were going to worship with the saints. If someone from a denomination told me they were "going to church" I would understand they were going to a brick and mortar building. In the context of who is saying it I could distinguish which meaning to apply to the phrase.

Paul's instruction to Timothy to hold fast to the use of sound words, thus the phrase "going to church" would be a violation of that since such a phrase is never found in any of the biblical mss. Now as a practical issue, I do as you described in how I interpret what they are saying. Among the brethren, when I find the use of the phrase I wait for an opportunity to gently bring it to their attention - 99% of the time they agree and begin working to remove the phrase from their vocabulary (which takes time).

With denominational people it presents an opportunity to illustrate the key difference between the denominations of broad way and the singular church on the narrow way. Usually they ask me where I go to church, and I respond with "I don't go to church". At that point they usually invite me to their's or ask me why I don't go: my answer is the same "I am in church now". Then they have a puzzled look on their face provoking the question: "How is that?" That question is what I was leading them to, thereby creating an opportunity for the TRUTH. Essentially I tell them that when I was baptized Jesus added me to His church; that I am always in His church 24/7 seven days a week; and that if at any point I leave His church or otherwise find myself outside of His church - I am LOST. Then I offer to study it in more detail, either at their home or mine. Holding fast to sound words as Paul told Timothy opens us many spontaneous teaching and evangelizing opportunities that otherwise would be missed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWorden

You have another thread entitled "Born and raised in the church of Christ." Someone who didn't know better might think that you were born a member of the church of our Lord which you were not. They might think it was a birth right within the churches of Christ to automatically include newborn infants into the membership (goats believe this). Or, they might think you were "saved" when you were born and then baptized at age 14 (goats believe this too). You were born an innocent, unaccountable soul and the Lord added you to the church when you obeyed the gospel at 14 years old as you described. Since I've read many of your posts and am well aquainted with your beliefs, I knew this statement was coming from a brother. Based on that context I knew exactly what you meant by it.

Thank you for the heads up brother, I totally agree with what you say and will clarify that post.

ho'adelphos · #25 05-07-09, 10:59 AM

Just did a search for the word "church" in Youngs Literal Translation... not to be found, just like in the original texts. YLT is the most faithful (of the English translations) to the original texts and is readily available - it is a shame that brethren don't use it more. I also like Alexander Campbell's translation of the NT - Living Oracles.