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  #26  
Old 05-07-09, 11:45 AM
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Re: Branches or what??

These clarifications are helpful, especially avoiding semantics which might be unhelpful for clarity. One example is Matt. 16:18, where Jesus said He "will build my church" upon "this rock", i.e. the bedrock truth "thou are the Christ the son of the Living God."
The concept of the universal church, made up of all converts is important, as is the concept of a local congregation which assembles.
For the sake of clarity without being tedious, it is accurate that baptized believers, who have been added to the Lord's church, assemble on the first day of the week, therefore they "go" to "meeting together", Heb. 10:25 [NIV], "the assembling of ourselves" [NKJV]. Even though "church" and "assembling" are not directly equivalent by definition, the noun form "assembly" shows the close relationship between the "who" that is doing "what".
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  #27  
Old 05-07-09, 12:35 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by mountravlr View Post
These clarifications are helpful, especially avoiding semantics which might be unhelpful for clarity. One example is Matt. 16:18, where Jesus said He "will build my church" upon "this rock", i.e. the bedrock truth "thou are the Christ the son of the Living God."
The concept of the universal church, made up of all converts is important, as is the concept of a local congregation which assembles.
For the sake of clarity without being tedious, it is accurate that baptized believers, who have been added to the Lord's church, assemble on the first day of the week, therefore they "go" to "meeting together", Heb. 10:25 [NIV], "the assembling of ourselves" [NKJV]. Even though "church" and "assembling" are not directly equivalent by definition, the noun form "assembly" shows the close relationship between the "who" that is doing "what".
Well said.
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  #28  
Old 05-07-09, 11:34 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by mountravlr View Post
These clarifications are helpful, especially avoiding semantics which might be unhelpful for clarity. One example is Matt. 16:18, where Jesus said He "will build my church" upon "this rock", i.e. the bedrock truth "thou are the Christ the son of the Living God."
The concept of the universal church, made up of all converts is important, as is the concept of a local congregation which assembles.
For the sake of clarity without being tedious, it is accurate that baptized believers, who have been added to the Lord's church, assemble on the first day of the week, therefore they "go" to "meeting together", Heb. 10:25 [NIV], "the assembling of ourselves" [NKJV]. Even though "church" and "assembling" are not directly equivalent by definition, the noun form "assembly" shows the close relationship between the "who" that is doing "what".
Well presented. My effort is to clearly distinguish what the church really is (since we are stuck with the word) in a biblical sense in comparison with denominational usage - and that the denominational usage has crept into the Lord's church, intentionally or not by the typical rank-and-file member. Those of us here clearly know the difference, but many members do not (many who have come from a denominational background before obeying the true gospel).

Here's an observation: It is rare to see any of the brethren use actual scripture to show who the "rock" is in Matt 16:18, but rather resort to a semantic dance of logic to explain who the "rock" is. I prefer to take the direct route and simply let the scriptures interpret itself and thereby cut the legs out from under the Pope's assertion that Peter was the rock ....

Quote:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink.

John 4:10-11 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Psalm 114:7-8 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob; 8 Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
Christ is the Rock.
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Last edited by ho'adelphos; 05-07-09 at 11:40 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #29  
Old 05-08-09, 01:27 AM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by ho'adelphos View Post
The Greek word in Heb 10:25 translated as "assembling" is Strong's G1997:
ἐπισυναγωγή
episunagōgē
ep-ee-soon-ag-o-gay'
From G1996; a complete collection; specifically a Christian meeting (for worship): - assembling (gathering) together.

Therefore assembly and church are never synonymous. Church is the ekklēsia, the people themselves. The church assembles; the assembly is not the church, but rather what the church is doing.
Let me say that I'm in no way a Greek scholar but what what about the translation of "ekklēsia" in Matt 18:17? Obviously, the church as we know it didn't exist at the time of this writing. Most versions translate "ekklēsia" in this verse as "church" but Young's Literal Translation translates it as "assembly." Jesus was saying "tell it to the assembly" was he not? Therefore, if a Christian were to say "I am going to church" (I am going to the assembly) could they not be using it in the same way Christ was here? Surely if Christ used it in this way it would meet the sound words requirement of 2 Tim 1:13. I am enjoying the study and I hope it doesn't come across as splitting hairs.
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  #30  
Old 05-08-09, 03:02 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

Robertson's Word Pictures says this of Heb 10:25, "(tēn episunagōgēn heautōn). Late double compound from episunagō, to gather together (sun) besides (epi) as in Mat_23:37; Luk_17:27. In N.T. only here and 2Th_2:1. In an inscription 100 b.c. for collection of money (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 103).

The saved assemble in the church. Readings from Hebrews 10:25 or Ephesians 2 or 3 are not incongruous.
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  #31  
Old 05-08-09, 08:37 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by KWorden View Post
Let me say that I'm in no way a Greek scholar but what what about the translation of "ekklēsia" in Matt 18:17? Obviously, the church as we know it didn't exist at the time of this writing. Most versions translate "ekklēsia" in this verse as "church" but Young's Literal Translation translates it as "assembly." Jesus was saying "tell it to the assembly" was he not? Therefore, if a Christian were to say "I am going to church" (I am going to the assembly) could they not be using it in the same way Christ was here? Surely if Christ used it in this way it would meet the sound words requirement of 2 Tim 1:13. I am enjoying the study and I hope it doesn't come across as splitting hairs.
splitting hairs? - not at all. I greatly enjoy and learn from the perspectives of others.

Just a note: the major translations were done by committees...each operating semi-independently of the others and therefore the English rendering was never consistent from committee to committee except to retain the ecclesiastical terms of the previous translations to remain consistent with the major denominational doctrines of the sponsoring group. (Yep - that's a mouthful, but nothing like the commissioning document - from the british archives - for the KJV)

In Greek ekklesia always means the same thing: the called out. That is what is great with Greek. Hebrew and Aramaic on the other hand, the meaning of many words depends upon the overall context. The Greek word to refer to the "building they meet" in is totally different as shown in my earlier post above, and it is never found in NT texts. In the LXX the Greek word to signify the house of the Lord is only found in the OT and corresponds with the Hebrew synagogue for meeting house or house of prayer as found in the Hebrew texts.

Young's is generally very good in bringing out the full "flavor" of the passage, but not totally perfect.
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  #32  
Old 05-08-09, 08:48 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by johnh1094 View Post
Robertson's Word Pictures says this of Heb 10:25, "(tēn episunagōgēn heautōn). Late double compound from episunagō, to gather together (sun) besides (epi) as in Mat_23:37; Luk_17:27. In N.T. only here and 2Th_2:1. In an inscription 100 b.c. for collection of money (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 103).

The saved assemble in the church. Readings from Hebrews 10:25 or Ephesians 2 or 3 are not incongruous.
Yes, in the sense that the newly saved is gathered into a flock that assembles together for fellowship, work and worship. Jesus adds them to His church, thus could be considered "He assembles them into His church which is His body". Gathering the individuals, bringing them together into a flock can be seen as assembling the flock. Basically Jesus seeks His lost sheep who are scattered, as He finds them He gathers them (adds them) into His flock; in the sense of putting something together - as the label on the box a toy comes in: "some assembly required" to build the thing, to put it together.

heautōn is who is doing the action of the assembling
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Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ... Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
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  #33  
Old 05-09-09, 12:55 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

Good comments. When looking up "church" in Vines' Dictionary, p. 102, we are sent to "assembly" and "congregation", on p. 42 and p. 122.
"Gathering" is found in Acts 7:38 (of Israel). Vines discusses the universal church, as in Matt. 16:18 and Eph. 1:22. Other passages refer to local congregations, singular, Matt. 18:17, Acts 20:28, 1 Cor. 1:2, Gal. 1:13, 1 Thess. 1:1, 2 Thess.1:1, 1 Tim. 3:5, and plural, according to Vine's in Acts 9:31, as in a "district".
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  #34  
Old 05-09-09, 01:03 PM
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Re: Branches or what??

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Originally Posted by mountravlr View Post
Good comments. When looking up "church" in Vines' Dictionary, p. 102, we are sent to "assembly" and "congregation", on p. 42 and p. 122.
"Gathering" is found in Acts 7:38 (of Israel). Vines discusses the universal church, as in Matt. 16:18 and Eph. 1:22. Other passages refer to local congregations, singular, Matt. 18:17, Acts 20:28, 1 Cor. 1:2, Gal. 1:13, 1 Thess. 1:1, 2 Thess.1:1, 1 Tim. 3:5, and plural, according to Vine's in Acts 9:31, as in a "district".
Good find District=community; the local community of the saints.
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Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ... Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
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