Let us answer some simple questions on women and the church. It seems that denominations (and sadly even in the Lord's church) let this false doctrine abound because it seems right in man's sight and it feels good to do this. Or the most common thing that we hear is "this is progress".

What dos God say about women...

Can a woman be a public leader in the church?

She cannot, as clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. When the whole church has come together (verse 23), a woman must keep silent in the church (assembly). Never in the Bible were there women evangelists, elders, or deacons look up the description for them and see what it says about the spouse being a WIFE). No woman led the prayers, led singing, or took any public lead in the worship of the church. They tried to publicly lead in the church in Corinth but were rebuked in the above verses. This is not to say that a woman is any less important than the man when it comes to roles in the church...EVERYONE has an important role to play. The problem is that mankind DOES NOT see the roles the way God does!!! No one is better than anyone else for we all are a part of the body and if the body was missing one part, then the body cannot function right.

Why cannot a woman lead publicly in the church?

1 Timothy 2:11,12 explains that the woman must learn in silence with all subjection. A woman leading in public worship is not in subjection. She must not teach in public because this would be seizing (usurping) authority over the man (verse 12). A leader of public worship is exercising authority over the audience. This is what women must not do.

Can women participate in public worship?

Christian worship is for all members of the church, but women must follow instead of leading. They engage in every part of the service, but not as leaders. Women sing, and even teach and admonish by singing (Colossians 3:16). They may confess their faith publicly (Matthew 10:32). They may answer a question (or ask one) in the presence of men (Acts 5:8). But in all these things they participate instead of leading.

Can a woman teach in private?

Titus 2:3-5 commands older women to teach younger women. This is to be in the home or in a separate women's class. Priscilla even taught a preacher, Apollos, the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:26). But she did this together with her husband, Acquila, and in private, not in public. Women labored with Paul in the Gospel (Philippians 4:3), but their part was not public leadership.

Is a woman's part important in the church?

Any God-given work is important. A wife can help qualify or disqualify her husband as an elder or deacon (1 Timothy 3:11,12). A preacher's wife can greatly help or hinder his work. A wife can often convert her unbelieving husband by her Godly life (1 Peter 3:1,2). A mother's work is to help teach and train her children (1 Timothy 5:14). Think of how much good was done and how many souls were saved by the grandmother and mother of the preacher Timothy (2 Timothy 1:5). No person can have a greater influence over a child than a Christian mother. Women have an important work in being good examples before their children and in being "keepers at home" (Titus 2:5). Read Proverbs 31:10-31 for a description of a virtuous woman.

Any woman should not feel unimportant because they are so needed in the church!!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

The hand that rocks the cradle...

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

This is a link to a study in the Preachers Files about giving titles to women that may be of interest.

http://forum.preachersfiles.com/view...t=titles#p4505

Didn't we just talk at length here about not having titles for ANYONE in the church?

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Yes, but we only touched on the women having titles aspect of it. I believe it needed more individual emphasis, not just a sampling. It is a serious issue. Those that do such, argue that the woman is under subjection and would amen all that brother White said but then still give them designations and titles of authority. They say they are in submission to the elders, who are men, so she is obeying the Truth. That is not what is taught in the scriptures or was done in the model of the inspired church. If a man wants to teach a kids class and a woman is the director/ minister etc, he will have to take direction from her and do what she says, teach the materials she says etc. In our culture, there is no getting around the implications. Even if she is not usurping authority over a man and the title is really nothing, it gives a wrong impression to the weak around in the church and in denominations who cannot tell the difference. Nothing good can come of it. No matter if the elders tell themselves all day long in fasting and prayer that it is fine, it is not and they cannot study their way out of the direct direction of the Lord God Almightly and Giver of the Word and of Life to only those that obey.

I think that many of our brethren will not be saved, not because they did something wrong but because THEY DID NOT CARE about the counsel of the Lord.

Steven,

I do not disagree with you at all. There is no scriptural authority for deeming a women "Director of Early Education" or anything of the like. And if a woman WAS in charge, then men could not be permitted to teach in those grades. I used to teach a class that had to sit in the office. I didn't even feel comfortable if a man would walk in to pick up something during the class, so I would stop the class. We would wait until he departed before proceeding. That may be extreme, but I don't want to go anywhere near the line.

Frankly, I do not understand why these congregations that are doing this. It seems to me to be just a step to show how progressive they are to compete with the denominations.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

That is why I put this in the denominations area. I guess that this hits a two fold subject...first women in the church and then the "titles" theme, also.

We are constantly seeing women "reverends" and then they are elders or "deaconesses" (neither of which are scriptual for a woman either). But the main point is that first titles are nothing to God...only mankind. And second, how can we go against God's Word as to who does what?? We are given roles and NO ROLE is more important than the other!

Example, if the eyelashes didn't grow, your eyes would get dust and dirt in them. If you nose did have the tiny hairs in them, then you would breath in alot of dirt into your lungs. The main theme is: All are needed to hold the church together and complete its wonderful work.

But Laura, if you were teaching a class and a man walked in to get something, I don't believe that he would be there to "learn under you...but if that makes you feel uncomfortable, then you stop as you said you would. I just wanted to say that I think he would not be in the position for you to stop the class.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I don't know all of the reasons that the Lord gives for why He
chooses men to be the worship leaders. But I suppose it has to
do with the fact that the man was created first and that the woman was
created for the man. Then this would make the man the head or source of
spiritual teachings to the woman. So then a reversal of this order would
be perverse.
In the first sin, it was the woman that gave the man the fruit. That was a
clear reversal of the natural order to begin with and in the new covenant that is
restored to its proper order.

What do you mean?

1 Timothy 2:12-14

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression .
KJV


The word "For" in verse 13 introduces the explanation. Adam was formed first.

"And" contraction here meaning "in addition to"

Adam was not deceived and the woman was. Eve was deceived into eating the fruit, Adam just did it. Both of them transgressed. The application for us here is that being deceived carries just as serious a consequence as outright rebellion.

Man was created first. God appointed men as the leaders. It doesn't make them any better or smarter, or superior in any way. It means they have responsibility. The Levites were the spiritual leaders of the Israelites. Didn't make them any better, or smarter or superior. Just meant they had that responsibility. God set it up the way He wanted it, our responsibility is to trust and obey. Plain and simple.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Very well explained, David.

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"that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

Very well said brother White. I have found that those congregations that are using women in leadership roles do so with the intention of "changing" many other things. It is one "step" among many in their plan to bring unscriptural change into the Lord's Church.

For example- since they know many would not accept the instrument being broguht in, they begin with little changes that chip away at the authority of scripture (2 Timohty 3:16) and work from there. Anytime the authority of the Bible is negated, it leads to a weak doctrine regarding the authority of scripture thus making it easy to bring in the "big" changes.

Kindly,
Don

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Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Sin is a vice of such frightful mean,
that to be hated has but to be seen.
But seen too often, and familiar with the face,
we first abhor, and then endure, and then embrace
-unknown

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

Well said!

That "unknown" fellow sure says a lot of smart things!

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Why can't the world follow the advice of Nike when it comes to God's Word and "just do it"!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

But instead...they sing..."I did it MYYYYYYY WAYYYY!"...if there would be any songs in the lake of fire, this would surely be in the top 10, if not number one on the chart.

In the PHYSICAL "world", there are...MALE and

FEMALE,...

BUT, in THE LORD, there is neither male nor female (in Genesis, God created mankind in His image, He created mankind as "THEM").

1) Paul's time was very chauvinist.
2) There were women in New Testament ministry.
3) Was Junias female?
4) Was it male or female who desired "living water" (living water baptism, John 7:38, Rev. 7:16) and readily recognized "Messiah" while the disciples still called Jesus "Rabbi" in John chapter 4?

http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/women/junia.shtml

This argument is fallacious.

1) There is neither Jew nor Greek in God's eyes. The Jews were biased against the Gentiles and demanded they be circumcised to be saved. The Holy Spirit, working through Paul , corrected this error. If the roles of men and women were not to be distinguished in the church, then the Holy Spirit would have worked through Paul to correct that error as well. He did not. Therefore, Paul's teaching was not merely a "thing of the times" as so many try to reason away.

2) Yes God created "He them" in Genesis. Read on. In Genesis 3, Adam and Eve sinned, Eve out of being deceived and Adam out of flat out rebellion. Roles were set by God. In 1 Timothy 2:8-15, Paul, again through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refers to these roles.

The bottom line: what Paul wrote was inspired of the Holy Spirit. Those who choose to not accept it are not rebelling against Paul but against God. Do not be deceived by Satan as was Eve.

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--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

To add to what Laura well said, we never said women were not in the ministry. They are a tremendous part of it, but God designates what areas they work in and we are not to argue with Him on the topic. That is our submission and sacrifice to Him in respect.

Romans 16:3 (fellow workers...please notice she is with her husband)
Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,

Acts 18:26 (involved in a private study)
So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Perhaps it would be good to do a more general study on the meaning of Galatians 3:26-29.

Would any of the teachers here be willing to take that on?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Hand raised for Laura...

Let us begin then...

Okay...point one: Very interesting...don't you know that the Word of God was God-inspired and not man-inspired?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If you feel that the Word of God was written by man with NO PART of God in it...then guess what, you can have your say and tell others how you feel. But since that is not the case
then I have to disagree with you on this matter. One thing is this...many "feel" that they need to be seen doing works in order to be seen of God...but no one wants to be in the backlight in the shadows (if you will) in order to keep things going. I have encounteed this with many in this type of doctrine being pushed in the churches of Christ.

Point two: This point is nothing because ALL were to go and teach...period. But let us see who were to be the elders and deacons....remembering point one's answer. Well, let me just say this and anyone can read it for themselves about elders having one WIFE...and deacons having one WIFE or are we going to go the wordly way with our own desires on that matter?? Or even saying that those who desire the office of a elder or deacon must be able to be the ruler (or head) of their house and who did God place in that position? Seems we don't have a problem with God putting man in the position of head in the home but when it comes to the church...something wants to be changed from what God put in place.

Point three: I have gone to my notes for some points on this name (which really doesn't prove anything)...

You are referring to a single name found in one place, what for? SO let us look at it...IN DEPTH.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Rom 16:7
Andronicus and Junia — or, as it might be, “Junias,” a contracted form of “Junianus”; in this case, it is a man’s name. But if, as is more probable, the word be, as in our version, “Junia,” the person meant was no doubt either the wife or the sister of Andronicus.

my kinsmen — or, “relatives.”

and my fellow prisoners — on what occasion, it is impossible to say, as the apostle elsewhere tells us that he was “in prisons more frequent” (2Co_11:23).

which are of note among the apostles — Those who think the word “apostle” is used in a lax sense, in the Acts and Epistles, take this to mean “noted apostles” [Chrysostom, Luther, Calvin, Bengel, Olshausen, Tholuck, Alford, Jowett]; others, who are not clear that the word “apostle” is applied to any without the circle of the Twelve, save where the connection or some qualifying words show that the literal meaning of “one sent” is the thing intended, understand by the expression used here, “persons esteemed by the apostles” [Beza, Grotius, De Wette, Meyer, Fritzsche, Stuart, Philippi, Hodge]. And of course, if “Junia” is to be taken for a woman, this latter must be the meaning.

who also were in Christ before me — The apostle writes as if he envied them this priority in the faith. And, indeed, if to be “in Christ” be the most enviable human condition, the earlier the date of this blessed translation, the greater the grace of it. This latter statement about Andronicus and Junia seems to throw some light on the preceding one. Very possibly they may have been among the first-fruits of Peter’s labors, gained to Christ either on the day of Pentecost or on some of the succeeding days. In that case they may have attracted the special esteem of those apostles who for some time resided chiefly at Jerusalem and its neighborhood; and our apostle, though he came late in contact with the other apostles, if he was aware of this fact, would have pleasure in alluding to it.

And this means what? Only that Peter was saluting them and recognizing them..nothing more.

Point four: Why do we want to focus on the gender than the REAL issue at hand in that she was a Gentile and even so, she regonized where salvation was...in Christ.

You know I could point out that it was man carrying a pitcher that led them to where they had the Last Supper and say that because there were only men and a man led them there, that only men can partake of the communion of Christ or why not say because since Eve sinned first, women are not worthy of salvation becuase of that act done by a woman, we have sinful world? I could say thse things...if I were to futher my OWN interests. And no, I hope no one thinks that I would even suggest that.

But it is really futile to try to use a few things to prove the distinction between women and men.

What was man to be the head and the woman to be the helpmeet. Does that role sound to belittling for some women? I consider that role to be par