Catholics: The Bible is not to be read by all; the Pope forbids it; all must not read it. (Catholic Dictionary, p. 82)

God's Word: Scriptures are to be read and understood by everyone. Ephesians 3:4; John 5:39; Acts 17:11 ; I Peter 2:2; 2 Peter 1:20.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Purgatory

Catholics: There is an intermediate state or place called Purgatory where the dead go to suffer punishment until they can be purified. (Council of Florence, 1439) Made an official doctrine, though man began to teach the idea early as the sixth century.

...and...

These people have not fully made amends for their failings, so must atone for them by suffering before being admitted into heaven. These sufferings are lessened by prayers and masses, according to Council of Trent. (Fulton J. Sheen, World Book, "P", 803)

God's Word says:

Prayers of saints or others cannot change our destiny after death. Hebrews 9:27.

The righteous acts of others cannot be transferred to my credit (before or) after my decease. I must answer for my own acts of my own body. 2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 1:29.

I cannot be saved by the prayers or righteous acts of others or even of my own self. Ephesians 2:8-9.

After death there is no changing from place of punishment to place of bliss. Luke 16:19-31.

The Bible knows nothing of indulgences either plenary or partial. Hebrews 2:3.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Good subject; look forward to more. We have been studying the apostasy of the Church on Wednesday nights.

Read the histories of Wycliff and Tyndale; you will find that they were declared heretics for trying to translate the Bible into English so that "commoners" would have access to the scriptures. I believe that Tyndale was burned at the stake.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

This from the catechism of the Catholic Church concerning purgatory:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

This comes from the catechism of the Catholic Church. It seems to contradict your statement above.


V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112


Can you elaborate a bit more on your reference?

So what you are saying is that the church is to pray to God that He have mercy on those who have gone on and do good works for them so that they will be let into Heaven. Please give scripture and verse where this is taught in God's Word that the church is to do this...because God's WOrd tells me that we are to do this ourselves (Phil. 2:12) and that we will stand only for ourselves and for we have done...NOT having anybody else's works at all (Rev. 20:12-13).

So please show me where I am to give alms and do good things in behalf of my uncle who died so that he can enter Heaven...by scripture only.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I have given the reference as to where I got the quote...this must mean one thing...your church has changed its doctrine while God's Word has not.

In 1414 was there a law put forth by the catholic chuch that they did not want peploe to read the Bible because it was translated into English where ALL could read it for themselves and be like the Bereans and to follow 2 Tim. 2:15? Yes or no will do...

Catholics also pray to Mary let alone bow before graven images of what the sculptures think she looked like. But where does the Bible or Jesus command us to pray to Mary? If so, scripture and verse please. Because even Christ tells us in the New Testament to pray to the Father only!

And should I mention about how catholics are approved to steal and lie from the Manual of Christian Doctrine? I think I will wait to go any further...

If you find anything that is not now, then your church changed its doctrine...I will go with God's Word that hasn't changed one bit!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Just noticed this...in bold...if God will not force anyone to be faithful, how can the catholic church do so? God accepts a willing soul not one who is forced.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Illuminator, Even though you baited me with several misconceptions, I did not join this thread a few months ago to argue for or against Catholicism; my post history will vouch for that. This is not a Catholic forum and I'll respect that. If the admins wanted a Catholic sub-forum for Catholic disscussion, they would have put one in. Don't get me wrong, I would not mind disscussing each and every point you bring up about the Catholic Church, but at this time, I don't think the folks that set this website up, wish want to go in that direction. I only responded to what you said about the Catholic Church not wanting people to read the bible because your statement, although slightly accurate at one time, and for good reason, is not true today and I thought members and readers of this forum should know, and would want to know.

I joined this forum because I have friends from different walks of life that attend the Church or Christ churches and I thought this forum was a good source for keeping in tune with that theology and there is always the possabilty of learning something or looking at something through a persective I have never considered before.

Peace be with you

This is a very important point. Many members of the Catholic church that I have spoken to online do not like to have the past teachings of catholicism brought up, but it is important to show their ever changing teachings.

Exactly my point...we use the Bible for out authority and then when denominations are pointed out for having their authority from SOMEWHERE ELSE other than God's Word...then they get upset. Why? Our past is in God's Word and I can easily go there and show it. But try that with denominations and their past doesn't want to be spoken of...maybe because they had to change their teachings while the church Christ is the head of and is the Chief Cornerstone has not?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Remember, when it comes to people thinking their interpretation is the only correct interpretation, it is a two way street. I have seen non-Catholics also get upset when a Catholic explains Catholic theology.

You baited yourself. I quoted several of YOUR church's manuscripts (even if you don't want to acknowledge them). That is what they printed. I quoted from God's Word and gave scripture...can you do the same for this:

From the Council of Trent and Lateran Council of 1215 where they gave authority to the "priest" to forgive sins (as I see today the "father" does still say, "Your sins are forgiven...") and in the catholics dictionary, Vatican edition on p. 821 says that he recieves gifts to say ANY prayers.

God's Word is different because we learn from God that He alone forgives sins (Mark 2:6-10; 1 John 1:9; 2:1) and that the gift of Go cannot be bought (1 Peter 1:18).

You came here and I am posting anything that is contradictory with God's Word...especially when it comes from man's doctrine to let people know what is truth from God and what is a lie from man.

I am in this area called denominationalism...and can discuss anything about the denominations in this world. The church that Christ built is not a denomination because it is not one of many but one of one. And if the admins don't want me to bring up these matters, then they will let me know.

Slightly accurate? And for good reason? When and where is anything that is OPPOSITE from God's Word slightly okay? Either you are right or wrong in God's sight. Okay...is it still a good reason to steal when only necessary (manual of Christian doctrine, p. 157, 297)? God's Word tells us that it is wrong to covet and steal...period! But then again maybe your church changed its doctrine again while the Bile has been the same from the beginning?

I use scripture and your church's past statements and you don't want them brought up...plain and simple. I am showing where God's Word has not changed from the beginning and where man's doctrine has changed and is ever changing still. That is truth.

I keep in tune with denominations teach and then I am like the Bereans to look at them TOTALLY (not just the present) but see where their founder is and how they began and if and how they might try to twist the scriptures to fit their doctrine. And then come from God's Word with the truth...period.

Peace be with you[/quote]

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I take the Word for what is says and not other so-called leaders of denominations. And maybe the Bible is already so simple it is easier to understand than others make it. 2 Peter 2:10 or is that why the catholic leadership didn't want anyone else to read the Bible in the beginning...?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I'm sorry Illuminator, but I feel I cannot get very deep into Catholic theology with you because I don't think the admins want that on this site and like I said before, I don't want to cause any strife amongst members and readers. It might be alright by the admins and moderators, for you to say whatever you wish about other theologies, but, I have a feeling that I cannot represent the otherside concerning your statements or accusations, so will not, unless given permission from the people that run this site. I am not refusing to discuss things with you, it's just that I have read other post on this site that made me think that Catholic apologetics are better left to other forums. If the admins said it was ok with them and we could take one topic at a time, I'm sure that we could have a respectful civil discussion on the misconceptions of the Catholic Church. Until then, I'll be content with minding my own business and commenting accordingly to post in such as way as to not offend other members of this forum. I don't have a grudge against Protestants and accept them as my brothers and sisters in Christ, therefore, I can discuss differences, if asked, not so that I can convert anyone, but only to explain why Catholics believe what they believe.

peace be with you

The only misconcetion is that I cannot find the catholic church in the Bible and I find things that your church started doing was worng then changed for this or that. Plain and simple...it is not the church that Christ began nor is it the church that Peter began (which he didn't start any church anyways).

All I did when I started out doing was post quotes from your churches doctrine (whether it be past or present) and what thus saith the Lord from His Word which we follow. You are the one who decided to answer to the posts...I did not bait you into anything which you accused me of doing.

You can explain why you believe the way you do but if it is not the way of the Bible, then it is wrong and I can't agree with your doctrine.

By the way...I am not a protestant or anything else...I wear only the name that we are given in Acts 11:26.
He (the One called Peace) always is.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I am an administrator and I speak for the other admins that you can proceed with saying anything you think shows the catholic denomination is the group that is the one true church of Christ, modeled in the scriptures.

Please proceed

And I await proof from the very beginning as that is where I start with any church that says they are the one true church...if they change from what God's Word says, then they are not part of that body.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Illuminator, let me first say that when I said "you baited me", I did not mean you intended to create a confrontation we me or anyone else. I only meant that the things you said made it tempting for me to respond. My apologies for not being more clear.

It looks like I have been given the ok to discuss Catholic theology. Thank you admins.
I would be happy to articulate in the best way I know how, the Catholic beliefs to any questions that are asked. I do ask that we try to take it one topic at a time if possible; perhaps seperate sub-topics for different questions?

I don't really want to compare Church of Christ theology with Catholic theology and get into some sort of my-beliefs-are-better-than-yours disscussion. If you don't agree with my answers, that's ok, I don't expect you to embrace the things I say. I know it took me a long time to understand Catholics because of my former non-denominational fundalmentalist background and don't expect you to agree with me. I am only in this thread to answer questions on Catholic beliefs.

I'll let you or anyone else start with a specific question and I will try to explain my position.

peace

I would like to ask the following:

Is the bible the Word of God and is it the final and only authority to base all things Christian upon?