Laura, you have to go outside of scripture to Church records, Chruch fathers, Church historians, as well as secular historians to know that Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus.

St. Timothy has been regarded by some as the "angel of the church of Ephesus", Apoc., ii, 1-17. According to the ancient Roman martyrology he died Bishop of Ephesus. The Bollandists (24 Jan.) give two lives of St. Timothy, one ascribed to Polycrates (an early Bishop of Ephesus, and a contemporary of St. Irenæus) and the other by Metaphrastes, which is merely an expansion of the former. The first states that during the Neronian persecution St. John arrived at Ephesus, where he lived with St. Timothy until he was exiled to Patmos under Domitian. Timothy, who was unmarried, continued Bishop of Ephesus until, when he was over eighty years of age, he was mortally beaten by the pagans.

Peace

Is this a fair statement Sonnie? Did they really talk about the price of his clothes? Granted the robe might not be dirt cheap but so what? Did you know the pope does not recieve a salary and that he lives in modest accomodations? If a person wants to be rich, they should not be a Catholic pope, bishop, priest or deacon.

Peace

As I said... folk lore.

Have you considered that there could be more than one Timothy? Why the assumption that it must be the same person?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

So you admit that Ephesus was the place where this all started? Forgive me but I didn't notice a reply from you regarding the warning Paul gave to the elders at Ephesus in Acts 20:17-31

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church £of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

I ask you again. Was Paul condoning what was about to happen at Ephesus or was he applauding them telling them that such would be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Oh, and note also especially verse 27. Paul says he declared the WHOLE counsel of God to them. The word "whole" means all, everything, with nothing left out. If Paul declared the WHOLE of God's counsel to them, then there would be no new revelation from the Holy Spirit as the Catholic church claims the pope is receiving. New doctrines after Paul declared this? They must be of men.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

You know... having thought about this and your reply, you still have offered NO proof that Paul here was instructing Timothy in being a bishop. Even in your appeal to Catholic church history, you said it claims Timothy was bishop of Ephesus, but there was nothing of Paul instructing Timothy in being a bishop.

Given what Paul said to the elders at Ephesus in Acts 20 and the fact that Paul told Timothy directly in his letter to him that he was to be an *evangelist*, one can only honestly conclude one thing here: IF (and that's a big IF) this same Timothy eventually became "the bishop of Ephesus", then he did so against Paul's, and through inspiration God's, wishes.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I think maybe there is some confusion here. A bishop is an elder. At the time Paul was teaching Timothy, he was too young and as an evangelist, he was to help the congregations set up elders/bishop as directed by Paul the apostle.

There is lots of opinion about what happened to Timothy after these epistles were written, some of which may or may not have been true, including maybe becoming an elder/bishop but regardless, it seems that your definition of bishop may be different than that of the bible.

What do you think a bishop is and who is qualified according to the scriptures?

Do you think a bishop and an apostle are the same thing? If so, how? If not, how?

That is a scripture saying WHO really has the final authority (which is God) and we HIS authority to preach and guess what...it comes from His Word which you say is not the final authority.

Very contradictory using the Bible to prove your point...also try using the reference of Gal. 2:8

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Also, Laura since he said to go outside of scripture be sure to take a look at the history that I posted for "outside of scripture" history.

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Jesus says all authority was given to Him. Matthew 28:18

Paul under inspiration claims he had authority as an apostle. 1 Corinthians 9:18, Titus 2:15

Where in the scriptures does it say or necessarily imply that the CHURCH had authority to come up with new doctrines?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

The apostles had the authority from God through the Holy Spirit as he guided the to all truth in thier letters to the churches and he gave us the authority in his Word to go and preach. We DON'T have the authority to CHANGE the nature of the church of Crist as the catholics put..."if it is not as the church of the first century in government and things, it is not the church of Christ" and I am glad that they said that!

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

What?? You don't want to talk about the money that is spent on such things of the catholic church now? Things that aren't necessary but more luxury in nature? That is the way I see denominations doing things concentrating on the robes and dress and church building but never on the truth.

He may not receive a salary but I guess when you are declared infallible, I guess you are just taken care of.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I do not believe I have ever known of a man that contradicts himself and talks out of both sides of his mouth as much as you have in this thread. I am very seriously doubting that you have any idea what you believe.

One minute you imply that because Paul's letter to Timothy is written to Timothy it is only meant for Timothy. Then you admit the opposite and say twice you admit that what Paul is teaching Timothy should be taught to us. Then you go even further and state that you admit that there was useful information there for any Christian. BUT, you do not want us to USE it. Please make up your mind. Is some of it OK for us to use and some of it NOT OK?

You wrote, "Context is crucial my friend." Yet you go outside of the Scriptures in an attempt to prove a point. How can that possibly be keeping something in context?

You wrote it yourself... You have to keep a verse in context to the chapter which must be kept in context to the book. YET... YOU yourself go OUTSIDE of the context of the chapter... OUTSIDE of the context of the book... to an UNINSPIRED book in your response to Laura.



Furthermore... let's look at how someone really and truly takes a passage out of context...

Talk about plucking a feather from a chicken!

I suppose Isaiah knew all about the authority of the church, something that was not even in existence when he wrote the following...

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns."

Now let's keep Romans 10:15a that you PLUCKED like a feather from a chicken... in context and see its truthful meaning...

Rom 10:14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Ahhh... where does that "faith" come from? From the "word of Christ."

Keeping this in context and harmony with the Book (yes, the Bible)... now we can understand why Jesus commanded teaching all that He taught to all nations...

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

So that they could hear the word of Christ and have faith.


You are one confused man Peace. Extremely confused. You need to do away with all this nonsense and listen to what God's inspired Word. Do away with all the secular history books... we can all come up with various beliefs from those books, but only the truth can be learned from the Bible.

What you are doing is exactly what Paul warned of when he wrote to Timothy...

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.



...

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

2 Timothy, as I said before, is a letter written by Paul, addressed to Timothy, not brother Sonnie. It is not "talking out of both sided of my mouth" to say that a Christian can gain useful information from documents that were not specifically written to you. I would think that is why the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church in dicerning that 2 Timothy should be part of the NT, your NT, the NT that you trust in, the NT that you trust from the authority of the Catholic Church, and the decreement of a pope. I am glad you put so much faith in the book of the Catholic Church, but you should not dismiss the Church and take only her book.

Peace,
You are not addressing the scriptures except to say they do not count, then they do, basically going whatever direction to build a straw castle of defense or point you wish to make that, foundationally consists of even less than sand. At least sand has some grit to it but you are drawing from apostate people's books to over rule the Holy scriptures that COULD make you wise onto salvation but you resist.

Please read the verses in this article (context and all) to know how powerful the Word of God, the epistles are vs the words of man you say justify your beliefs.

You say we are not "right" but the Word confirms we are righteous in our position since it is God's position we speak, not our own. There is only one Lord, one Faith and one Baptism, John 1. Only one Way, Truth and Life.

You better get your soul, in relation to God, "right" or your choice and conviction will come back some day to haunt you and you will regret ever throwing what we have tried to show you from the Word, away for some guys that think way too high of themselves in their robes, lifting themselves up in opinion and binding authority on the same, self proclaimed, authority level of the Holy Spirit, God. satan was guilty of the same thing, pride and he was cast from heaven for it.

Please feel free to approach any of the teachers on the site to have a private study if you desire it but as far as this thread is concerned, it is over and locked since it is obviously going no where and when comparing the arguments of worldy man made books to the scriptures, there is a shocking difference and the Word shines as the Truth.

Romans 3:4
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“ That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.”



ANSWER: By having a Christlike attitude -

Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

1 Peter 2:21
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Man’s Traditions and Examples vs God’s

John 14:10 (Do not speak our ideas or words, but only Gods, that is submission and Godly righteousness)
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 15:20-21 ( it is more than the Gospel, but the letters of the Apostles from the Holy Spirit also) 20 Remember the word that I said to you, “˜A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

All pattern, traditions and Word, established by God “through”, Jesus and the Holy Spirit inspired Apostles, ARE PART of “God’s traditions” and “Word” and we are commanded to hold to them.

For example, no instruments (which was not used for 1000 years in worship, no women leaders or directors over ministries, no spending of money on such entertainment outlets as gymnasiums, etc. There is no authorization for such things, so we are not to implement it, regarding if we think it is expedient or not.

Let us look at what God has to say about this:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.

The next two verses, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and Mark 7:8 contrast the two types of righteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 (No instruments for 1000 years in worship - no gym’s, shows, entertainment, no record of contribution spent on things other than the Work of the church and the Work of the church is evangelism, support of ministers, widows, needy, teaching). Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

God's Righteousness - VS - man made righteousness

Mark 7:8
For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men -the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

Miss-applied Faith and Righteousness leads to man made traditions

The faith of the bible:

Doing what we believe is acceptable before God in Faith - is not the Faith of the bible. The Faith of the bible is to believe what God has said and have faith that what He has promised, will be done.

This was the faith of Abraham and we are the Spiritual children of Abraham. If we have the faith, God intends for us to have, as we Seek first His Righteousness. John 8:39.

God’s Righteousness and Authority in the church?

How do we not fall into the pitfall of Human Righteousness, especially since even Satan can quote scripture?

The answer: We can learn God’s righteousness and respect His Authority from the scriptures themselves. By making them our only authority since other than the, Bible we know ABSOLUTLY NOTHING about the mind and thoughts of GOD.

The problem many often have is that when we learn some about God we are tempted and can develop such deceptive pride that we then begin to branch outside of the Word, leading to transgression. To stay out of this trap, Jesus said abide in my Word and I will abide in you.

-Be watchful for those that can misguide -

Elders are to be on watch for such who may seem righteous but are actually empty of the righteous substance of God’s Word

Empty sermons /teaching symptoms:

Quote maybe list one - three verses per sermon to fill the time.
Jokes and stories that do not apply and serve to only entertain to Gods disrespect and the detriment of the listeners. Steer away from teaching on what God says about painful issues such as Gods true direction about divorce, women’s roles in the church, abortion etc. Quotes men, movies, secular pop songs and denominational teachers and Psychology experts more than the Word/scriptures.

People’s emotions must be drawn out in response to the scriptures, not be emotional for the sake of emotion.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Ephesians 4:14
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

One of the Tests of a spirit is, do they hold to and preach the Truth or water it down or not teach it at all.

- Meat Flavored Salt VS Salt flavored Meat of the Word.
- No substance results in starvation and eventual death.

We are to respect God and approach the scriptures the same way as Jesus and the Apostles approached the Word, which means, humility to God’s Righteousness over our own:

- Many today teach only partial Gospel and partial doctrine. Where in the bible did any messenger of God only teach part of God’s Word?

We are to not only follow the Red Letter parts Jesus gave but also the letters of the Apostles through the Holy Spirit which includes all applicable commands, examples and yes even traditions that lead to maturity and righteousness for Christians.

The Gospel gives us life but a baby must grow after they are born or they will die. The Gospel is the milk and the letters written to the church through the Holy Spirit is the meat.

Hebrews 5:13
For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.

1 Peter 2:2
as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

Hebrews 5:11-14
11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Corinthians 3:2
I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

Today, a large group of congregations that have fallen or are falling away usually do so because of this very problem.

Those that preach in such ways do not have the attitude of Christ since Jesus preached the Truth to the point of death because He loved the church, His Kingdom.

He did not ignore the truth to keep attendance numbers high and extend His life. We need to keep the same attitude of Christ which leads me to the next point.

Why should we be so careful about the teaching and carefully check the scripture to be sure the Word being taught is True and accurate?

Answer: Because the teaching of righteousness as well as the spiritual health and security of the Church is directly determined upon our willingness to hold and abide in God’s Word.

Psalm 119:105 (What if we do not use the Word, are we not in darkness?)
Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path.

Isaiah 42:16 (Since God has shown us the way, should we wander from the path?)
I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, and not forsake them.

Titus 1:9
holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

1 Corinthians 15:2
by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

Acts 2:42
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

1 Timothy 4:13
Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine

1 Timothy 5:17
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.


Conclusion
To the Righteous and faithful servants of the church. - When the faithful love God with all their heart soul and mind, seeking first the Kingdom and His Righteousness, “God promises” these things will be added to you in this life and the life after but let us not give way, give up or give into pressures to do contrary, regardless, satan will temps God’s people through the world and even through other brethren, to not remain faithful.

Hebrews 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Revelation 3:11
Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

There you go again... talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Either we can apply it to our life or we can not... make up your mind.

It does not have to be addressed to BroSonnie in order for it to apply to me and in order for God to command it be taught to me.

This has been proven over and over, but you are ignoring the proof and truth.

Again, you are a very confused man Peace. This is truly sad.

There is absolutely no inspired proof that the Holy Spirit has guided the Catholic Church in discerning Paul's letter to Timothy.

You are ignoring that we have already proven this over and over again.

There is no Scriptural authority for the Catholic Church, the pope or any of this other uninspired rhetoric you are throwing around.

I would never turn my back on God and listen to some decree of the pope, who is nothing more than a man who is guided by Satan to induce false teaching into the world. Anyone in their right mind would not do this. He can be your idol to your own destruction.


You have clearly dug yourself into such a deep hole that you cannot climb out of. I know this has turned into a complete embarrassment for you and those who might be of your denomination.

I am truly thankful that your false religion has been exposed in this thread. Anyone considering the false religion of Catholicism that has an open mind will clearly see they need to stay FAR away from it. After reading this thread they will have a massive understanding of just how silly it is as well as the fact it cannot be proven in any form or fashion.


...

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Perhaps you would care to do some reading on how we actually got the bible. There are some links that I will provide, you can look at them if you want.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1972

Dr. Denny Petrillo "How We Got the Bible" series. Audio
Part 1: http://www.newlandstcofc.org/Sermons...20Petrillo.wma
Part 2: http://www.newlandstcofc.org/Sermons...20Petrillo.wma
Part 3: http://www.newlandstcofc.org/Sermons...20Petrillo.wma
Part 4: http://www.newlandstcofc.org/Sermons...20Petrillo.wma

Plus an article by brother Petrillo: http://www.bearvalleycofc.org/articles/Apocrypha.html

__________________
John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

This is great...now we have the book of the church, but the so-called church that claims the Bible as their own doesn't follow it at all and goes on to make their own books.

While the specific letters were written to specific brothers...the Bible was written to all and for all. I don't see any authority for the catholic belief (which I have pointed out and Mr. Peace is now ignoring). But from the beginning he dismissed the Bible and takes only what the catholic have taught in error. We take God's Word and try ANY that say they are coming in His name...as the pope said in a speech after he arrived here "I am here to preach the Gospel"...well, I think I will be like the Bereans and see if what he says is true.

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15