I would like to see an answer to these questions as well...

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

This is really opinion, not necessarily fact.

Petros is masculine gender and means pebble. Petra is feminine gender and means ledge or ledge of rock.

The words might be similar, but it does not mean they are identical.

Does not Aramaic only exist in theory... has that text been produced and authenticated? Is there proof that Matthew wrote in Aramaic? If so, where?

You are conjuring up superficial information to support a mere opinion based on something that does not even exist and based on something that you cannot be certain of... it is all speculation. How can you possibly believe in such a system?

Consider the numerous distinctions the Bible makes between petros and petra in the following passages...

Mat. 7:24, 25
Mat. 27: 51, 60
Luk. 6:48
Luk. 8:6
Rom. 9:33
1Cor. 10:4
Rev. 6:15, 16


Furthermore it does not make sense that Peter would be the foundation of the church as well as the one with the keys to open the doors.

I have also not seen a response to the following:

1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


There is absolutely no doubt that anyone suggesting that Peter is the rock upon which Jesus built His church and that Jesus made Peter the visible head of the church is wrestling the Scriptures to their own destruction. There is just no proof for it. If someone can make that stick... then we are all in a world of hurt, because all kinds of other speculative theories can be surmised from Scripture if we go about it via this method.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Catholics do not believe that the Catholic Church is a denomination.

Neither do Baptists believe that the Baptist Church is a denomination. What a group believes about themselves has no bearing on what they truly are. We know from Scripture that there is only one church belonging to Christ, and that is the only church of which any of us should want to be a member. Do you agree with that?

Jason

Neither do they believe Peter (their idol) when he tells us the Bible provides us with all things that pertain to life and godliness. (2Pet. 1:3) or what Paul also explains in 2 Tim. 3:17.

The Catholic have so many false teachings that it is impossible for them NOT to be divided from the one true church of Christ.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Bro. Sonnie,

This is where it all started from...I QUOTED from the catholics OWN books and someone responded to tell me that it wasn't true. If someone has known their own church's history then they cannot argue with something quoted from their OWN material that they wrote AND enforced at one time. And if they change then the question remains...why were they not right from the beginning and simply following God's Word in the first place. I truly have not began to talk about history yet...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Then please show us through the Word of God how it isn't. I am asking that question in another thread and only biblical answers can be given. So far, it is truth given scripture...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Yep... they admit that they pick and choose what best suits their man-made doctrines...
Paul warned of this...

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

...and the Catholic denomination was the first great apostasy.

...

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Brothers, I have a feeling that anything I say here will be rejected, and that's ok because I'm not trying to sway anyone here. I understand where you are coming from and in no way condem any of you in any way, as I once was much like some of you....until I realized something.

Peace be with all of you.

Just what did you realize? You left that hanging!

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

I would rather you stick around. But if you choose to leave that is your prerogative. I have two points of contention in particular that I would like to highlight one last time.

1) Scripture says otherwise: 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 1 Peter 4:11. The scriptures not only bring people to Christ, but they are all-sufficient. A Christian needs NOTHING else to live and worship God correctly.

The Bible saves (Rom. 1:16), justifies (Rom. 10:17, 3:28), edifies (Acts 2:32), gives light (Psalm 119:130), comforts (Rom. 15:4), gives growth (1 Peter 2:2) prevents error (Matt. 22:29), cleanses (Eph. 5:26). "...It is profitable profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." In other words its all we need.

In fact God has never been appreciative of man's effort to amend His words. From the Old Law Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you." To the New Covenant, Galatians 1:6-9. To the final Revelation of Jesus Christ 22:18-19. This means all new or different revelation is condemned even if an angel or an apostle brings such.

We will be judged not by catholic teaching or "tradition" but by the All-sufficient word of God, Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Either the inspired word is ALL we need to be complete or God lies.

Jude 3 states that the faith is delivered once for all time (hapax). There's no room for continual revelation, no matter if its the catholic church, mormon church, pentecostals, etc. We have our final authority.

2) This is at variance with the Greek language and with scripture. The nouns of Matthew 16:18 are of different genders and are of different significance. Petra (rock) feminine and signifies something large like bedrock or foundation. Petros (Peter) is masculine and signifies fragment. To illustrate the city of Petra was located in southern Jordan and was carved out of rock cliffs. Christ named Simon bar-Jonah long before his confession in Matthew 16:18, found in John 1:42 "And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone."

Scripture makes it clear that the Christ's church was not built on Peter, but rather on Christ. Christ is the cornerstone (that upon which all else is built) Luke 20:17, Eph. 2:20. Peter himself acknowledges this, Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:6-7.

Certainly Peter was important to the early church, no denying that. He along with the other apostles were charged with spreading the gospel to all the world Matthew 28:19-20. They were to be lead into all truth John 16:13. Peter was in my opinion a man easy to like, impetuous, perhaps fun to be around. Those character traits also caused him to err a number of times. He gave into racial prejudices and had to be apposed personally by Paul in Galatians 2:11. Not only was Peter not perfect he was no more likely to be named to a higher position than the others, save Judas.

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

And you understand nothing then. Sir, I have tried to get you to truly come from God's Word in your answers. You say you follow Christ but wear another name not given to one who would follow Christ. I have quoted from your church's manuscripts and you tell me that I am wrong. You only use one scripture to prove a point about the church...and then you say you realized something, BUT don't say what you realized. I wish to be enlightened if it is truth, then speak up.

I will state this...I was like you until I realized something. No EARTHLY man could have founded the church that Christ said He would build. If I said that I was going to start a club, then guess what...it would be founded on MY ideas and rules and those who wish to be in it would have to look to me as their head.

I haven't even begun to show the inaccuracies of denominations such as the catholic religion and you...I am taking it don't wish to go on any further?? If that is the case (which I hope it isn't) then continue to read as I will continue to post and show truth vs. man-made doctrine.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Catholics says Bible not a clear statement of the teachings of Christ...

“There is nowhere in the New Testament a clear, methodical statement of the teaching of Christ” (Question Box, 66).

God's Word I guess then is just mixed up and so confusing that we who have gotten to know who Christ is and what God wants us to do are just wasting time! But I will let the Word speak for itself since I believe God would not leave me hanging without realization of something...

1 Cor. 14:33 - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Interesting that God's Word tells us he would not be confusing but the message would be simple to understand. But to go on for a minute...

Catholics say, “The Scripture indeed is a divine book but it is a dead letter, which has to be explained” (Our Priesthood, 155).

...and “A dead and speechless book” (Question Box, 67).

If that is the case then they shouldn't even try to use it to explain ANY of their beliefs at all! Yes, for some passages in the Bible are hard to understand and some do need help in understanding them, BUT 2 Tim. 2:15 tells me that if one studies the Word, it can be understood, just as the Bereans did, we need to see if what ANY person coming to us telling us "truths" is really telling the truth!

And the one thing that God's Word tells me is that the Holy Bible is a LIVING message “God’s word to us is something alive, full of energy” (Heb. 4:12)

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

quick — Greek, “living”; having living power, as “the rod of the mouth and the breath of the lips” of “the living God.”

So which would you believe..man or God?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Yes... the Scriptures are clearly rejecting the false information that you have provided and you are not able to stand up to it. We have asked you several questions and have refused or otherwise been unable to answer them. We continue to mound up the evidence from God's Word that shows what you believe is just not possible and far from the truth. I can very well understand how hard that is to swallow when you realize just how wrong you have been. I too hope you will continue to stay here and learn more about the truth. The truth will set you free!

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Hi Lee,

I don't intend to leave. I do notice though, that I thought I was only answering questions as to what Catholics believe and what the Catholic Church teaches. It appears though that some on this forum want to take it to the next level which is actually analyzing the teachings. I do not object to that, but, because this is a Church of Christ, Sola Scriptura forum board, I hesitate to go in that direction so as to not let things get out of hand with tempers flaring and pot-shots being taken (not referring to myself).

So I do want to stay and answer questions as to what Catholics believe, as I originally intended, but if some on this forum want to analyze those teachings only for the purpose of showing how wrong they view them to be, I would need the latitude to defend those positions, and there my brother, is where things seem to get out of hand because of the possible inability for some to discuss in a reasonable fashion, their own beliefs. I don't want that to happen to this forum because I feel that the admins have a nice thing going here for COC members. I have friends that are COC members, so I do this in respect to them as much as to members of this forum.

I did not intend to have to defend Catholic doctrine, only state what Catholics believe. If you feel I should defend it in order for some here to attempt to disprove it, I am open to that if you feel it would be to the benefit of those that read these threads, but, once again, I would want permission from your admins and would also expect courtesy from those in the discussion.

Peace

I am not sure how much more approval you need. One Administrator has spoken already. I also have no problem and have even made several comments that you have not answered questions and responded to Scripture that has clearly refuted your denominational practices and beliefs. I would think that would be ample enough approval there. You are more than welcome to continue, but please answer and respond accordingly.


1Pe 3:13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?
1Pe 3:14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
1Pe 3:16 yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Your presence is appreciated by me. You must understand that we will contend earnestly for the faith. By all means post what the catholic church believes, but you must realize that we will check the scriptures to see if such things are so (Acts 17:11). You also must realize that if we find things that oppose clear biblical teaching we will make that known. It should be done with gentleness and respect 1 Peter 3:15, but it will be done. It is up to you to decide if you wish to defend those teachings.

You are right, we believe in the clear biblical teachings on the sufficiency and finality of the scriptures. So we will appeal to them. If it cannot be proven by the scriptures then we will reject it. What purpose is there for additional laws, rules, or revelations if the scriptures are sufficient for all things? The only reason I see is because someone didn't like the teachings found therein and decided to change them.

I say this with all love. Christ is the one head of His Church. The papacy cannot be found in scripture neither can the organization of the RCC be established from pure biblical teaching. If you must go to some extra-biblical teaching for what you are doing, I will reject that. It has no purpose, in fact it violates God's commands not to add to, subtract from, or in any way alter the all-sufficient word of God which has been once delivered Jude 3. On this we will stand firm.

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John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

If you are staying...great! I would not want you to go. Answering and discussing is the only way to come to the truth. But when confronted with the truth, everyone must agree to accept it. The Bible was, is, all always will be the ony book that the one true church can use for God's authority and final say.

I feel I must make this statement thusly...I will not state "this is what the church of Christ believes" or anything like that...what I will say is this: "This is what God's Word says" to anything that is not according to it or has been twisted from it simplicity. If I need to show contradiction to God's Word by showing how wrong makind is by using their own doctrinal books that ANY denomination has come up with...then I will. It will show record of truth vs lies. As Lee stated, we look only to the Bible...but why? Because in the New Testament church, that is the ONLY thing that they had. At first they only had the scriptures from the books of prophecy (what we know as the Old Testament which is there for our learning...Rom. 15:4). Now that we have the New Testament, we can have knowledge of God through His Word and not through anything else.

We can discuss anything here, but I will say that when one is shown truth and will not accept it...then we can end discussion.

I let the Word defend itself...it will show truth and let truth be known (as shown and told in Acts 5:17-42)...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

And I am still waiting to hear what was realized??

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Amen brother D.! Well said!

I would desire to be called a Christian rather than "COC Member". This not a "church of Christ" forum in the since of the name that stands in front of a church building. This is a Christian forum and a forum for anyone who desires to teach or learn the Truth. Those who are saved are indeed members of the one and only church that belongs to Christ, therefore they are Christians. Labeling yourself a "Catholic" is not in accordance with the Scriptures... it is a man-made name. Calling the church "Catholic" is not in accordance with the Scriptures... it is a man-made name and therefore would be a denomination.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie