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Don Gelles · #51 06-26-09, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace, and grace alone,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9

And yet, the very verse you quote refutes the statement you make when you say "...we are saved by grace, and grace alone." Where in this verse does it say "you are saved by grace and grace alone"?

If what you say above is true then every person alive this very second is saved by grace. None will be lost. Yet, the Bible teaches that "for by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, least any man should boast." Are you teaching the false Calvinist doctrine of unconditional salvation? Is a gift given but never received or accepted a gift enjoyed? I think not.

Kindly,
Don

Don Gelles · #52 06-26-09, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

It is clear that faith in Jesus Christ is what saves a person (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8-9).

That's odd. I thought you said "we are saved by grace and grace ALONE". Now you say "Faith in Jesus Christ is what saves a person." Hmmmm. You must have a different definition for "ALONE" than the rest of us.

In two different statements you talk about what saves a person and each time it is something different.

Kindly,
Don

Scott Russell · #53 06-26-09, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. "

Salvation cannot be a combination of grace and works.

Romans 11:6 plainly says, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

It is impossible to mix grace and works. Either God saves a man by grace, or man saves himself by some form of works.

It will be helpful to understand that God's only plan of salvation in every age has been and always will be by grace through faith plus nothing. Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Jesus Himself is the only means of salvation. Let us see the plain teaching that one is saved by simple faith in Jesus Christ. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." The word hath is in the present tense. In modem English the word is has. Here the Bible promises that the person who believes on the Son has everlasting life. It is not something he is going to receive after he is baptized, but it is something he has the moment he believes on the Son.

In John 5:24 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Notice again in this verse the same clear teaching that one has everlasting life the moment he places his faith in Christ.

The same teaching is found again and again in the Bible. John 6:47 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." The moment one believes, he has everlasting life, he is passed from death unto life.

Now here is the simple story: all men are sinners; and, as sinners, we owe the sin debt. Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death . . . ." If we pay what we owe as sinners, it means we must die, go into Hell and stay there forever. That is the penalty for sin.

But two thousand years ago Jesus Christ bore our sins in His own body and died on the cross to pay our sin debt. That is the clear teaching of John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

We are sinners. We owe the sin debt. Jesus Christ was not a sinner. He died on the cross to pay that debt. One is saved by simple faith in Christ. That is the clear teaching of the Bible.

Wayne:

I believe you will find that we have no argument when it comes to the Grace of God. I assure you that we most definitely understand that we are saved by the grace of God. The difference is, you believe that we are saved by grace only. However, the bible never says that, not even one time, in-fact the bible never says that we are saved by faith only as some people teach.

If that were the case, then you must know that James lied when he said the following: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." {James 2:17}

Check the context of that statement, James has plainly asked the question as to weather or not "faith without works" could save. "What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" {James 2:14}

The answer could not be plainer, for verse 17 states, "faith without works is dead."

You also have a fundamental misunderstanding as to baptism being a work of merit, but according to scripture it is not!

Mountravir makes an excellent point when he says:

"As to any objection of baptism being a "man-made" "work", we have only to look to Col. 2:12 for the phrase, "raised with Him through faith in the working of God" in connection with NT baptism, c.f. Gal. 5:6.

Paul states that baptism is the work of God, not man!!!

Now back to acts 2:38 you have not dealt with it, Peter said, not me, Peter said Repent and be baptized. Did Peter not understand? Was he lying? Or was he doing exactly what Jesus told him to do?

Consider the account of Saul's conversion. {Acts 9:1-18} The Lord pays a visit to Saul as he is traveling down the road to Damascus, Saul, who up to this point has been persecuting Jesus is now stopped dead in his tracks, so-to-speak, and he is told to go into the city where it will be told what he "must" do.

Now notice from chapter 9, he has lost his sight and for three days he does nothing but fast and pray, if there was ever such a thing as the "sinners prayer" surely this was it. However, was he saved? Did the mer fact that he had had this conversion experience on the road to Damascus save him?

Well, consider Saul's own words in the matter recorded in {Acts 22:1-16}. What was he told to do?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." {Acts 22:16} If Saul was saved the moment he believed just three days earlier, then that means that Saul was saved before his sins were washed away.

It also means that Saul was saved before he called upon the name of the Lord, because he was plainly told to arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." You see, biblically, this is what it means to call upon the name of the Lord. It does not mean that one says: Lord, come into my life, but rather, you call upon his name by submitting yourself in obedience to his will.

Respectfully,
Scott

Don Gelles · #54 06-26-09, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

the Bible makes clear that we are saved by grace, and grace alone,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
—Ephesians 2:8-9

If I was you and wanted to push the doctrine of grace alone, I would used Acts 15:11 not Ephesians 2:8-9.

Kindly,
Don

Don Gelles · #55 06-26-09, 07:34 PM

While we are on this topic of "saved by grace alone" we can start some new lists:

We are saved by Grace: Acts 15:11
We arew saved by the gospel: Romans 1:16
We are saved by baptism: 1 Peter 3:21
We are saved by christ's blood: Epehsians 1:7
We are saved by mecy: Titus 3:5

Each of the above is used in a verse with the context of "being saved". So, why don't we divide them up and each build a theology around one item and promote that is saves ALONE.

The problem that many have is that they fail to take the Bible as a whole. They pick and choose their "pet verses" because they "have not", or "refuse to", be obedient to the gospel plan of salvation.

I'll go first....

The Bible teaches that we are saved by mercy alone: Titus 3:5. Now, forget what the rest of the verse says, and for that matter, what the verses prior to it say, I hold that we are saved by mercy alone as mentioned in this verse. Therefor one does not need to be baptized or repent or confess Christ, or believe... all one must do is be thankful for the mercy of God.

Kindly,
Don

Don Gelles · #56 06-26-09, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Russell

Wayne:

I believe you will find that we have no argument when it comes to the Grace of God. I assure you that we most definitely understand that we are saved by the grace of God. The difference is, you believe that we are saved by grace only. However, the bible never says that, not even one time, in-fact the bible never says that we are saved by faith only as some people teach.

If that were the case, then you must know that James lied when he said the following: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." {James 2:17}

Check the context of that statement, James has plainly asked the question as to weather or not "faith without works" could save. "What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" {James 2:14}

The answer could not be plainer, for verse 17 states, "faith without works is dead."

You also have a fundamental misunderstanding as to baptism being a work of merit, but according to scripture it is not!

Mountravir makes an excellent point when he says:

"As to any objection of baptism being a "man-made" "work", we have only to look to Col. 2:12 for the phrase, "raised with Him through faith in the working of God" in connection with NT baptism, c.f. Gal. 5:6.

Paul states that baptism is the work of God, not man!!!

Now back to acts 2:38 you have not dealt with it, Peter said, not me, Peter said Repent and be baptized. Did Peter not understand? Was he lying? Or was he doing exactly what Jesus told him to do?

Consider the account of Saul's conversion. {Acts 9:1-18} The Lord pays a visit to Saul as he is traveling down the road to Damascus, Saul, who up to this point has been persecuting Jesus is now stopped dead in his tracks, so-to-speak, and he is told to go into the city where it will be told what he "must" do.

Now notice from chapter 9, he has lost his sight and for three days he does nothing but fast and pray, if there was ever such a thing as the "sinners prayer" surely this was it. However, was he saved? Did the mer fact that he had had this conversion experience on the road to Damascus save him?

Well, consider Saul's own words in the matter recorded in {Acts 22:1-16}. What was he told to do?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." {Acts 22:16} If Saul was saved the moment he believed just three days earlier, then that means that Saul was saved before his sins were washed away.

It also means that Saul was saved before he called upon the name of the Lord, because he was plainly told to arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." You see, biblically, this is what it means to call upon the name of the Lord. It does not mean that one says: Lord, come into my life, but rather, you call upon his name by submitting yourself in obedience to his will.

Respectfully,
Scott

Well said!

By the way, did you notice my excellent and sound argument for the teaching that we are saved by "mercy alone"?

JWayne · #57 06-26-09, 07:48 PM

Scripture declares salvation is by the grace of God not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are not saved by works but to work (Ephesians 2:10). We are not baptized in order to be saved but because we have been saved.

There are more than 150 verses in the New Testament that assert salvation is based on God’s grace and it efficacious when man responds with a faith commitment. Some texts are:
Matthew 26:28; John 1:12; 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 47; Acts 16:31, Ephesians 2:8,9; II Timothy 1:12; Hebrew 9:14; Revelation 1:5.

These and other texts eliminate all human efforts to earn, merit, or deserve God’s favor.

Is baptism essential for salvation? Well Acts 10 states that some Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit (and therefore saved) before they were baptized. This is significant, for the Holy Spirit is the seal of the believer’s salvation (Eph. 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22; Rom. 8:9). Furthermore, Jesus saved the thief on the cross without water baptism (Luke 23:39f). It would seem therefore that baptism is not essential for salvation.

It is important to recognize that baptism is an outward sign of the inward conversion experience. It identifies us with Christ’s death and with his resurrection (Rom. 6:1-6,11; Col. 2:11,12). At baptism, the believer symbolically dies to the “old man” to become a “brand new creation” in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). As a sacrament (like Holy Communion), baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but it does established the Christian as a member of God’s visible church.

Scott Russell · #58 06-26-09, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Gelles

Well said!

By the way, did you notice my excellent and sound argument for the teaching that we are saved by "mercy alone"?

Brother I like that one, because it's for sure that someone like me needs all the mercy he can get!!! And while were on the subject I ask that you keep me in your prayers, as I too remember you, and ask the Lord that he will ever be merciful toward me!

Thanking you in advance,
Scott

KWorden · #59 06-26-09, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

Scripture declares salvation is by the grace of God not of works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We are not saved by works but to work (Ephesians 2:10). We are not baptized in order to be saved but because we have been saved.

JWayne, please respond to the verse that was brought up earlier Col 2:12 that states baptism is a work of God and not a work of man. You seemed to have ignored this verse and I would too since it flys in the face of what you are saying. Please deal specifially with this verse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

There are more than 150 verses in the New Testament that assert salvation is based on God’s grace and it efficacious when man responds with a faith commitment. Some texts are:
Matthew 26:28; John 1:12; 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 47; Acts 16:31, Ephesians 2:8,9; II Timothy 1:12; Hebrew 9:14; Revelation 1:5.

These and other texts eliminate all human efforts to earn, merit, or deserve God’s favor.

One verse, a series of verses, or 150 verses do not eliminate other verses in the Word of God. We must understand that the Bible is in complete harmony in order to come to a thorough knowledge. As Bro Don pointed out earlier there are many things the Bible says saves us and we must take everything as a whole that is said on a subject in order to fully understand it. Obviously, no other subject is as important as the salvation of our souls! We don't deny that God's grace is necessary. We don't deny that faith is necessary. We also don't deny that baptism is necessary because Jesus said it, the apostles said it, and there are many examples of baptism in the New Testament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

Is baptism essential for salvation? Well Acts 10 states that some Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit (and therefore saved) before they were baptized. This is significant, for the Holy Spirit is the seal of the believer’s salvation (Eph. 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22; Rom. 8:9). Furthermore, Jesus saved the thief on the cross without water baptism (Luke 23:39f). It would seem therefore that baptism is not essential for salvation.

JWayne, please realize the purpose of the Holy Spirit falling on them was to show that the good news was for not only the Jews but also for the Gentiles. Joel had prophecied of this in Joel 2:28. Part of the all flesh took place in Acts 2 and the remainder of it took place here in Acts 10. At the very least, this was a special circumstance.

Nonetheless, Peter still realized that they needed to be baptized (Acts 10:47-48). He commanded them to be baptized in water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

It is important to recognize that baptism is an outward sign of the inward conversion experience.

Please provide book, chapter and verse to prove this statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

It identifies us with Christ’s death and with his resurrection (Rom. 6:1-6,11; Col. 2:11,12). At baptism, the believer symbolically dies to the “old man” to become a “brand new creation” in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).

Agreed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

As a sacrament (like Holy Communion), baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but it does established the Christian as a member of God’s visible church.

Please provide book, chapter, and verse that baptism is a sacrament. I just did a search of the ASV, ESV, KJV, and YLT and that word doesn't appear even 1 time in any of those versions. You have just tried to turn baptism into something completely foreign to the Word of God.

Don Gelles · #60 06-26-09, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

Furthermore, Jesus saved the thief on the cross without water baptism (Luke 23:39f). It would seem therefore that baptism is not essential for salvation.

Have you never read Mark 2:5-12.

Additionally, the verse you site (Luke 23:39) has nothing to do with "spiritual salvation" it has to do with being saved from the cross "physically". The thief who insulted Christ was making the statement that if Jesus was the Christ- get us off these crosses. The "other thief" supports this when he responds in verse 40 and 41 by stating they were "under the same sentence (death) and "punished justly" but that Jesus was innocent. You should have used Luke 23:42-43 for your false argument against baptism. It is here that Jesus does what he did in Mark 2:5-12 and showed yet again that he has the power to forgive sins.

Don Gelles · #61 06-27-09, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The above verses, John 1:12 and 13, are speaking of birth. Born of blood nor of the flesh nor of the will of man will make a person a “son of God” only when a person is born of God (born again).

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The above verses, John 3:1 to 8, also speak of birth. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, natural human birth, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, born again, born of God. There is no water baptism mentioned or intended here.

Being born of water? Jesus is not talking about baptism here, He is talking of Himself...Jesus to the woman at the well...John 4:10: Jesus answered her, ‘You do not know the gift of God. You do not know who asks you for water. If you did, you could ask me. I would give you living water’.

John 4:13, 14: Jesus answered, ‘Everyone who drinks water, from this well, will need more water later. Whoever drinks my water will never need more. My water will be like a stream that gives *eternal life’.

John 7:37-39 proves your "interpretation" of John 3:1-8 wrong. You offer nothing to counter the clear teaching on the need to be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God. Furthermore Jesus proves you wrong in Mark 16:16 and the teaching of Peter in Acts 2:38 is further proof of your error. Jesus said water and spirit are needed In John 3:5 and in Acts 2:38 we see water and spirit on the great day of Pentecost when the one true Church began.

I do not envy you my friend. Your argument is with scripture and not with us! You must prove the Bible wrong, Christ a liar and yourself right. This I firmly believe you will NOT be able to do.

Kindly,
Don

P.S.
The question for you know is what are you going to do with the sound teaching you have received in this thread? Are you going to continue to reject the sound doctrine presented to you and hold to the false teaching of a man made denomination? or, are you willing my friend to humble yourself and be willing to allow the scripture to teach you out of your error regarding baptism and how the Bible teaches one become a Christian? You are, at this very moment, living Luke 8:11-15. What type of soil will the seed find in you?

I am glad you came to this site because it teaches the truth of God's word. I want to offer you a free DVD Bible study called "Searching For Truth". It comes with a work book and takes you right back to the Bible as you study many different topics. If you will email me your mailing address I will send this study to you free of charge. You can also visit the website of the Church of Christ in Hyde Park and watch the DVD online. Simply go to www.hydeparkcoc.org and go to the Bible study section. Please, don't let this wonderful opportunity of coming to this site and being exposed to sound doctrine be wasted.

Kindly,
Don

KWorden · #62 06-27-09, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Gelles

Have you never read Mark 2:5-12.

Additionally, the verse you site (Luke 23:39) has nothing to do with "spiritual salvation" it has to do with being saved from the cross "physically". The thief who insulted Christ was making the statement that if Jesus was the Christ- get us off these crosses. The "other thief" supports this when he responds in verse 40 and 41 by stating they were "under the same sentence (death) and "punished justly" but that Jesus was innocent. You should have used Luke 23:42-43 for your false argument against baptism. It is here that Jesus does what he did in Mark 2:5-12 and showed yet again that he has the power to forgive sins.

Excellent thoughts Don!

Another thing to consider is whether or not the theif had been a disciple of Christ before this event? In Matthew 10 we see where Christ sent his disciples out to preach so it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that the thief had been a follower of Christ. We also see in Luke 23:32-43 that the thief had some previous knowledge of Christ as Don pointed out:

1. He believed God
2. He had a sense of justice knowing right from wrong.
3. He knew that Jesus was innocent.
4. Jesus was a King.
5. He understood Jesus would come in his Kingdom.
6. Jesus could include him in that Kingdom.
7. He also knew that it wasn't over at Christ's death.

Did he learn all of this on the cross or could he have known it previously? We can't know for sure but I wouldn't want to base my doctrine on something that is so uncertain.

Another important thing to remember is that the the Great Commission (Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16)wasn't given until after the resurrection of Christ and the new covenant didn't go into effect until the death of Christ (Heb 9:15-17). The Lord's will for man was plainly laid out AFTER the thief on the cross. Surely you would rather take the Lord's words (he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved) over an uncertain example!

Lee Parish · #63 06-27-09, 09:46 PM

I believe Wayne's questions and contentions were answered fully straight from the Bible. I encourage everyone who reads this to go back and read through this thread.

Glory to God that His word is understandable and His will is revealed!

KWorden · #64 06-28-09, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWayne

Is baptism essential for salvation? Well Acts 10 states that some Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit (and therefore saved) before they were baptized. This is significant, for the Holy Spirit is the seal of the believer’s salvation (Eph. 4:30; 2 Cor. 1:22; Rom. 8:9). Furthermore, Jesus saved the thief on the cross without water baptism (Luke 23:39f). It would seem therefore that baptism is not essential for salvation.

Just a final thought on this...in Acts 10:33 Cornelius stated the reason he had sent for Peter was "to hear all things that are commanded thee of God." Peter begins to preach to them the death (Acts 10:39) and resurrection (Acts 10:40) of Jesus Christ. In verse 43 (Acts 10:43) Peter tells them that through the name of Jesus whoever believes on them should be saved and in verse 44 (Acts 10:43) the Holy ghost falls on them.

Now, my question: What more of "an outward sign of the inward conversion experience" (to borrow a man-made doctrine from JWayne) could anyone ask for? I think anyone there would see this as an "outward sign." These Gentiles were speaking in tongues for crying out loud! Don't you think dunking in water would have been a little bit of an anti-climatic "outward sign"? I'm sure Peter was standing there thinking "You know, they can speak in other tongues now but what we really need is an outward sign. Maybe if they would get wet...yeah, that'll be a good sign!"

Friends, fact is baptism is not an outward sign of an inward conversion. Baptism is an obedient reponse to a command from Jesus Christ (Mark 16:15-16). Peter knew this. He commanded the Jews the same thing on the Day of Pentecost (Act 2:38) that he commanded Cornelius and these Gentiles in Acts 10:47-48. The baptism of Cornelius had the same effect as the baptism of the Jews in Acts 2 - the remission of sins. If you can't accept this your issue isn't with any of us who are part of the church. No, your issue lies directly with the scriptures - the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God (2 Tim 3:16).

If your baptism was for any reason other than the remission of sins then it wasn't a valid baptism. You went into that water a sinner and you came up out of that water a wet sinner. I would guess (though I don't know for sure) that some of the teachers here might have been in this condition at one point in their lives before they fully understood the will of the Lord. If you were baptized as a baby, a baby that couldn't freely, intentionally submit to the will of Chirst, then you were just a cute, wet little baby. My wife was baptized in a denomination as a baby and then years later she was introduced to the gospel, the same gospel that we want you to submit to, and she was baptized for a legitimate reason - the remission of her sins. If you were dipped, poured, or sprinkled then you were not baptized. You just got wet. If any of these situation apply to you or you have never been baptized for the remission of your sins then we implore you to submit God's plan and be baptized in water for the proper reason immediately!