Here is a thought question that has been mulling around in my head for years: In the world we live in, can a Christian serve as president of the United States, and still be pleasing to God? That goes for other jobs as well, any of the Clandestine Services, as well as Senators on certain committees. My point is there SEEM to be things that such people are supposed to do, as part of their jobs, that would conflict with Scripture. Thoughts?

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

As bad as this country has become, I dont believe a Christian would ever be elected. If a Christian ever had a Christian policy, meaning that he was against gays and abortion, he would never become a president.

Just a thought.

Ive been a foreman and ran the shop and everyone knew that I was a Christian.

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"Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

There would definately be change.

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

To enter public service as you have suggested, requires the political process. This process requires one to be "exalted" above other candidates, a clear violation of biblical principles.

I don't know if I agree with this statement. We certainly are all equal in Christ, but we are not all equal in talents and abilities in this world. Should people not strive for promotions at work? Would that exalt them above others?

I think you can run a campaign of ideas, and not violate scripture. And on a local level you can win. I don't know if you can win a national campaign like that.

But suppose a Christian COULD win, could they perform the duties of the President without violating scripture? Let me be more specific. Say dealing with foreign dignitaries, can you ALWAYS tell the truth and not violate the confidence of your country? It is really the truth issue that comes to the fore, our country asks people in certain areas of "service" to deceive.

If everyone in the world was a Christian this would be a non issue. I am just curious thought this would make some interesting discussion.

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

I'm not sure that an equivalent relationship exists between biblical principles and not "being equal in talents and abilities in this world". We have all seen the political efforts of religious leaders, like Pat Robertson and Mr. Huckabee, and even the likes of Jesse Jackson, who have become political "harlots" to advance political agendas. And herein, I believe, lies the dilemma, in gaining a political base, sort of a worldly "being all things to all men", quoting Jimmy Carter who quotes the apostle Paul, 1 Cor. 9:22. Even with the best of intentions, there will always remain a vast gulf between worldly politics and christian living. Warnings in the Book about leaven are well taken!

James Garfield was a member of the Lord's Church and he was elected President. Of course, we all know how that ended...they Killed him!

There are faithful members of the Lord's Church in all levels of government- both elected and appointed- that serve God and serve their fellowman without compromising their stance for the truth.

Perhaps soon, a man or woman will rise to the office of the President who is a faithful member of the Lord's Church and begin to make the changes that need to be made. Well, that's my prayer....

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

The more people with morals in government, the more moral it will be. Christians help a nation in all levels and can help influence policy.

Keeping a secret is not necessarily a sin because there are various reasons for keeping secrets, especially when it comes to protecting human life against those that wish to destroy it.

Yes there is sin in government and their branches because there are people involved. There is also sin in the church too because it is made up of people. We as people are the ones that make things good or bad. Christ is the only consistently perfect one and through whom we are perfected as well. Without Christ, there is no difference between one organization to another and each can be filled with fault or good. Regardless, God established government and a government that does good will be blessed by God and those that are evil will meet their doom as well.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a reproach to any people.


Did Paul's nephew sin in reporting the plans of evil people planning to kill Paul? Of course not.

Acts 23
11 But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome.”
12 And when it was day, some of the Jews banded together and bound themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. 13 Now there were more than forty who had formed this conspiracy. 14 They came to the chief priests and elders, and said, “We have bound ourselves under a great oath that we will eat nothing until we have killed Paul. 15 Now you, therefore, together with the council, suggest to the commander that he be brought down to you tomorrow,[c] as though you were going to make further inquiries concerning him; but we are ready to kill him before he comes near.”
16 So when Paul’s sister’s son heard of their ambush, he went and entered the barracks and told Paul. 17 Then Paul called one of the centurions to him and said, “Take this young man to the commander, for he has something to tell him.” 18 So he took him and brought him to the commander and said, “Paul the prisoner called me to him and asked me to bring this young man to you. He has something to say to you.”
19 Then the commander took him by the hand, went aside, and asked privately, “What is it that you have to tell me?”
20 And he said, “The Jews have agreed to ask that you bring Paul down to the council tomorrow, as though they were going to inquire more fully about him. 21 But do not yield to them, for more than forty of them lie in wait for him, men who have bound themselves by an oath that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him; and now they are ready, waiting for the promise from you.”
22 So the commander let the young man depart, and commanded him , “Tell no one that you have revealed these things to me.”

I know many Godly and moral people in the military and they cannot tell me things. I do not need or want to know. It is for their and others safety.

We should not be involved too much with the glorified fiction mixed with a bit of truth in movies and often in the news media that fill in the blanks with their imaginations to make for more interesting TV.

We should stick to what we know. I know that some of the most respected brothers I have known were in the military and represent the church well, protecting our right to worship freely.

Just my two bits.

Altruism is commendable, on all levels. But it still remains that political ambition often revolves around greed for money, greed for power, exaltation among men, etc. We have all seen it. The means required for successful political endeavor would require a christian to compete with those of lesser spiritual character.
From a biblical perspective, the only offensive weapon allowed to christians is the "sword of the spirit", Eph. 6:17.
There is no carnal answer for spiritual matters, 2 Cor. 10:4, whether it be in government, the military, lower office, higher office,etc. This holds true for any perceived "good", which may be manifest in violation of the spirit of the passage. I don't recall the Lord directly teaching, "Glorify God in politics of government, and hold government office." We are taught to be obedient to "the powers that be", but that doesn't necessarily include joining them. Mixing political office with the spiritual arena is not a biblical amalgam, c.f. 1 Cor. 15:33. This passage demonstrates a certainty, and not a mere possibility.
Remember Regean's "city on a hill" speech"? The attempt was to mix a spiritual application with political ideals. LBJ did it too with Isaiah 1:18, but leaving out the last part of that verse.
Perhaps someone personally knows a professonal politician who has not compromised his/her christian character in being elected to public office.

I don't think it is fair to compare a christian as Lee is talking about to the men you speak of here. One wouldn't have to become a political "harlot" to adequately serve. Perhaps that is what the perception of these people would lead one to believe but it isn't necessary. It's so uncommon to see one serve in a humble manner that maybe we forget it could be done. I could be wrong, but isn't the political base the group of people who believe in the ideas that one stands for and not necessarily the person themselves?

I think that you kind find reasons for a christian to not work in just about any profession if you wanted to look for them. Could a christian work at a car dealership since they have a reputation for telling lies? Could a christian work at Walmart, the convinience store, or the grocery store since they sell booze? Policemen have a reputation for being unfaithful to their wives. Most companies have Christmas parties that serve liquor. Some supervisors even curse at their employees. Every work environment short of being a preacher is going to create a problem in this regard.

I have found no prohibition in scripture that would prohibit a member of the Lord's Church from serving in political office, the military, FBI, etc. Even a manager of a Taco Shack can be a member of the Lord's Church and still be pleasing to God. I will offer Colossians 3:17 to show that whatever we do in word of deed we should do all in the name of the Lord, be it political office, the military, management and so on.

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

And to be fair and honest, there are even some problems is this area that are not pleasing to the Lord. Examples: preachers caught stealing, sleeping with prostitutes, gambling, drinking, etc.

I agree with your post. Well stated.

Kindly,
Donald

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

Again, there is no equivalent relationship between the carnal, the secular and spiritual values. Logic is defeated if disproving a negative is required to make a point: "I have found no prohibition in scripture that would prohibit ....." Silence on a matter can be shown to be prohibitive, e.g. Heb. 7:14. Moses was "silent" about other tribes carrying the Ark of the covenant, making Jesus genealogically unqualified to serve as a high priest on Earth.
The "word or deed" passage is directly aimed at spiritual application primarily through "teaching, admonishing, singing."
And again, a job a "taco shack" is not equivalent to elected office, weapons carrying police/military or the like.

I'm not talking about the silence of the scripture. I said I have found no prohibition against it in scripture. You misunderstood. Those passages that deal with this topic contain no prohibition against a Christian serving.

Please produce scripture that says a Christian is prohibited from serving in elected office, etc.

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

This would only be true if the context of the entire passage were teaching, admonishing, singing. Please read the entire context beginning with verse 1. Therefore, Colossians 3;17 has application to all those things we do in work and deed.


Just because you say it doesn't does not mean it is not. A manager at Taco Shack could be faced with the opportunity to steal- could not a politician be faced with the opportunity to steal? A manager at Taco Shack could be faced with the opportunity to lie, could not a police officer be faced with an opportunity to lie? A manager at Taco Shack could be faced with the opportunity to abuse supplies, could not a person in the military be faced with the opportunity to abuse supplies?

I would encourage the manager at Taco Shack with the same verse I would the police office or solider.... Colossians 3:17

Kindly,
Donald

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

I'm sorry that I misunderstood. Could your request be in the form of a question like:
"Prove to me by the Bible that a christian cannot serve in elected office, etc.?
The answer may be evident in several qualifying other questions:
Does it glorify God? Does it benefit the church? Does it benefit the gospel?
Does my participation in this thing enhance my reputation as a christian?
If we approach this by biblical exegesis as defined by direct command, example, or necessary inference, then we can perhaps get close to an answer.
The use of "spiritual warfare" is through the "sword of the spirit", Eph. 6:17.
What principle did Jesus teach in Matt. 26:52?
What disqualified David from building the temple? 1 Chron. 28:3
Did the Lord or the apostles command, infer, or exemplify carnal politics?
Lacking these, then by what standard does a christian have licence to participate in what might certainly be "questionable"?
Does this thing require me to consort with non-christian people?
What was Cornelius' duty to the Lord, after conversion? Could he remain a centurion if he was required to say "Caesar is lord"? If not, then why not?
Where is the "line" to be drawn if civil/military participation conflicts in some matter with christian standards as taught in the Book?

Of course the applications which you have suggested are true, Gen. 4:7. But the standard is "doing right". Being right with the Lord is first, and avoiding compromise in any endeavor is next.

The beautiful spirituality of Colossians Chapter 3:

The reason that I mentioned the spiritual application of Col. 3:17 as foremost over the secular is as follows:
v. 1 "raised with Christ" (the baptismal event)
"set your hears on things above"
v.2 "set your minds on things above"
v.3 "your life is hidden with Christ"
"you also will appear with Him in glory"
v.5-9 "put to death...." or mortify all those things listed
v. 10 "and have put on the new self which is being renewed...."
v. 11"...but Christ is all and is in all"
v. 12-13 Positive Attributes of God's people, and ethical instruction.
v. 14 "...put on love which binds them all together in unity."
v. 15"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts,..."And be thankful..."
v. 16 -17 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly"
And then there is the wonderful verse 17, which highlights all of the spiritual attributes reflected in the preceeding verses 1-16.

Now tell me again, where does chapter 3 of Colossians support the secular, carnal along with the spiritual things? There is no evidence which supports what you have suggested in previous posts. Even if we can somehow "agree to disagree", would this solution somehow be better than what you actually believe to be true?

Fine, lets use this question then

OK

Yes it can glorify God. Yes, it can benefit the church. Yes, it can benefit the gospel.
Colossians 3:17

If you are walking in the light and "doing your job" according to what the scriptures teach it will. 1 John 1:6-7. We must practice the truth. What is the truth? The word of God John 17:17. So one in office-etc, walking in the light and practicing truth will help their reputation by doing their job in a godly manor.

Yes, agreed as shown above.

I have no idea what you mean from these verses. I see no application to the topic at hand.

Well, I would ask the same question about one being a used car salesman. lacking any permission by Jesus or the apostles how could one participate in what might certainly be "questionable".


Yes it would- thankfully! What a great opportunity to convert the lost. I am a preacher and I actually seek out non- Christians and consort with them. Just the other day, I played golf with one of them.

Cornelius was given no instruction to leave his profession. I too wonder what he did about that "Caesar thing"?


I would pray one would choose the book and the commands of God: Acts 4:19-20

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

It teaches us that we are to do what is accordance with God's word, in all that we do in word of deed. Your assessment of carnal along with spiritual things would cover any profession a Christian was in.

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

getting back to the origin of this thread, let me offer a few Christians that did serve in areas of government and or law enforcement/military... Erastus (Romans 16:23) and the Philippian Jailer (Acts 16:25-36).

As I have stated in previous posts, these individuals are to be lead by the word of God as they carry out their responsibilities.

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

To be clear I, in no way, wanted to turn this into a military discussion. I believe that the military is a different issue than what I was addressing.

Ultimately in our chosen field we are to follow scripture. However there are some fields from which a Christian is obviously excluded, so obvious as they needn't be mentioned. Then there are other fields which fall into a gray area. In order to be employed in some places one must agree to do things a certain way, in this instance a president must swear/affirm to defend the constitution. What all does that entail? In order to be the President of this country in 2008 where must the loyalty lie?

I do not wish for this discussion to become contentious. If it becomes evident that this thread is heading in that direction I will shut it down.

It should be noted that deception and keeping secrets are two completely different things. Say I purchased a present for Steven. Steven suspects but does not know. We all know Steven likes to spoil surprises, so Steven asks me if I bought him a present. I can tell him directly no and lie to him deceiving Steven, or I can take another route without completely giving away the surprise. I can tell him "You'll have to wait and see," or "I won't answer that" etc..

It also should be noted that my father served in the navy, and my grandfather served in the army before becoming an elder. I have heard the discussions for and against military service or government service in general and really didn't want this discussion to turn into that. I was looking closer at a few positions.

Lets keep this friendly!

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

If I thought this was occurring last night I would have exercised my authority as a site administrator and shut it down. I see nothing indicating it has become as such.

Agreed


As I stated, I find no prohibition preventing a Christian from serving in elected office. Be it president all the way down to City Council. Interesting, all of these offices require a person to "pledge allegiance" to the government be it national, State or local. A Christian would be required to obey those law so far as they did not usurp God's teachings. I offer Romans 13:1-7 ans Acts 4:19.

I have not read with perhaps the exception of Lipscomb's book on Civil Authority, anyone that has condemned Brother Garfield for serving as the 20th President. I have not read where he was ever withdrew from nor marked because he served as President of the United States. The Official "President's Page" of the White House makes these very interesting comments about the president:

As the last of the log cabin Presidents, James A. Garfield attacked political corruption and won back for the Presidency a measure of prestige it had lost during the Reconstruction period

It appears that our brother in Christ chose to stand with the scriptures and do what was right. He is also quotes as saying, "I stepped down from a higher office to hold a lesser office" He said this in relation to leaving the eldership of the congregation he served to be the President. From this, I see that he understood that the Church was "above" elected office and God's word must be upheld first and foremost.

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

transgression of God's will

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Each knows when what they are doing in their own job, regardless of what it is, if they are doing it for evil or good motives...if it selfish or the protection of the innocent. Each human, regardless of what job, position, responsibility will be held responsible for what they do and their response to God's Word.

A policeman can kill a man in the line of duty and be a servant of God doing His will...that same policeman could kill a man with evil in his heart and then be murder in God's eyes.

This applies to all duties of man. Sin come out of the heart of man.