Brother Robert made a statement elsewhere that sparked the idea of this thread.

There is no doubt that many lost souls are walking in and out of the building doors where members of the Lord's church worship and study. It behooves us as members to do all we can to try to setup personal Bible study with these lost souls. Unfortunately, I fear that "many" congregations are ignoring the opportunities presented. However, this is not what I would like to discuss in this thread.

While it is important that we attempt to study with the lost, it is as equally important that we prevent our brothers and sisters in Christ from going back to that lost state that they were once in. Several families and members of the church recently left a congregation because of the extreme liberalism and public sin that is condoned in that congregation. It is not hard to see how apparent public sins are widely ignored in many congregations of the Lord's church. This is what I would like to address in this thread.

What are public sins? These are sins that are carried out in public where anyone can see or clearly know about the sin through various communication avenues. I am not referring to gossip as one of those communication avenues, but rather things such as the newspaper, school programs and other advertising means. We may not be able to physically see and witness the public sin, but we can read about it and/or see evidence via pictures that are publicly available.

What are some of those public sins? Nearly any sin can be public, although there are several that are done secretly and privately. Public sins may include any of the following:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).

Obviously, this is not an all inclusive list, but it covers the vast majority, especially in light of the inspired Paul writing "and the like"... ("things like these" NASB/ESV) after listing many sins of the flesh.

Some of the more common public sins, also known as "social evils" that have become acceptable or tolerable by many congregations of the Lord's church... and certainly by most all denominations... are such things as smoking, using tobacco, social drinking, gambling, dancing, cheerleading, beauty pageants, mixed swimming, immodest dress, supporting denominational activities and events, fellowshipping with denominations... and probably not so surprisingly, the hatred toward brothers who through love and obedience to God's Word, attempt to address these public sins with those who are guilty. Again, this list is in no way exhaustive.

When congregations of the Lord's church ignore these public sins that are prevalent among their members, they basically give approval to those who practice them (Romans 1:32).

This can cause others to believe those sins are not really sins. It can cause those who are innocent to sin. It misrepresents what the church stands for, the truth. It can cause the congregation to appear to be nothing more than a denomination. It fits the pattern that Paul warned Timothy about (2Timothy 4:3-4). There are numerous consequences when public sin is ignored.

As "children of God", what are our obligations to those brothers and sisters who are publicly erring?

If we love God and if we love His children, we will obey God and what He has commanded of us to do in these situations.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1John 5:2-3).

Immediately after Paul was inspired by God to explain that those who practice works of the flesh "and the like" would cause them to not be able to enter the kingdom of heaven (Galatians 5:19-21 above), He also inspired Paul to explain what the responsibility of those "who are spiritual" is to those who practice such things.

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted (Galatians 6:1).

Paul is obviously speaking to all "brethren", as he is addressing the Christians in Galatia, but he also emphasizes those "who are spiritual", implying that those who are more learned in the Scriptures should be the ones to address those in error. In the case of a private sin, brother against brother, that situation would be handled differently (Matthew 18:15-17). In the case with the Galatians, it is evident that Paul is referring to those who are overtaken by sin in which other brethren can identify. This is not to say that in some cases we may identify or learn of a brother or sisters private sin, although at that time it would seem to be publicized. The point being with those who are publicly sinning, the sin is "public" and it would be good judgment for those brethren who are more seasoned in the Scriptures to address those who err. A new convert may not be as effective as a more spiritual brother. If the congregation has elders, whose duty is to shepherd the flock and who should be respected by the sheep which they shepherd, it would again be sound judgment to allow the elders to address those in error (1Peter 5:1-5, Hebrews 13:17, Titus 1:9).

James was also inspired by God to explain how we can carry out our love for His children in error.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins (James 5:19-20).

Where are our brothers and sisters who claim they love God and claim they love our brothers and sisters in Christ?

He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him (1John 2:4-5).

It seems as though it is not often just anyone is willing to adhere to the Scriptures when it comes to going to a brother or sister in sin. It is a very difficult thing to do and there is no doubt anyone doing so is very likely to be received with resistance and possibly even persecution. However, God is so very clear about the fact that if we truly love our brothers and sisters in Christ, we will obey His Word and take the necessary steps to do what is right by going to that brother or sister.

I have asked on many occasions if it is loving and right to allow a brother or sister to continue to wallow in their public sin. If we know a brother or sister is in sin and we do nothing… and that brother or sister die in their sin, this will be viewed by God as neglecting to love our brother or sister. No doubt, it may be difficult to go and see that brother or sister in sin, but it is absolutely necessary if we truly love them.

It is evident in many congregations today that when we identify public sin, call sin by name, condemn its practice, and oppose it, that tragically, some claim such actions are unloving, despite God telling us that through our obedience to Him is how we know we love our brothers and sisters.


I welcome your thoughts and additional comments!



All quoted Scripture is from the NKJV unless otherwise noted.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

We cannot and should not allow a brother or sister to keep one sinning and not warn them somehow...whther it be directly or indirectly. Case in point: I have a sermon that I brought on disfellowship and it is a serious matter. If we don't speak out aganst it, then we will be viewed as just another denomination. And we must speak out. But explain why and with love.

I saw there was a need to preach about family and the importance of marriage before children as at Redbird there were many girls with children outside of marriage...well, all of them except one...maybe. So I brought a sermon on it and I was practically shunned for a few weeks. This morning I brought a sermon on marriage and the same things were said (I am at a differnet congregation where the leadership is sound), and I was encouraged.

Whatever the outcome of the response, we must peach against sin no matter who we hit...INCLUDING OURSELVES!!!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Amen D...

I am reminded of how Paul warned Timothy...

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2Ti 4:4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2Ti 4:5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.


Rebuking is part of preaching the Word, even if there are afflictions that must be endured.

If the only thing a preacher ever preaches is "feel good" lessons, when will there ever be afflictions to endure?

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I don't want to derail this thread, but I don't know that we can right off label these things as sin. Advisable? Not really, but sin? It's a case by case study IMHO.

Dancing: I have two left feet and all the grace of a dancing bear, so it doesn't appeal to me. My wife feels the same way. I don't let my kids go to dances b/c of what it can lead to and b/c many denominational folks believe "preachers' kids don't dance." But is it sin to move in rhythm to clean music? Of course not.

When I was single I used to go to the dances our fire department would hold. Many saints did. But the music was clean, the lights were on or at least bright enough you could see and the idea was to listen to the music and a few folks might dance--most of the time it was older married couples enjoying a slow dance (one saintly couple were great dancers) or little kids acting silly to the amusement of everyone in the room.

Can I label that as sin? No more than I can a good friend and brother who is an avid square dancer or the elderly sister now passed on who used to come to school to teach us young kids old, old square dances. She was one of the soundest, most modest saints I've known who once publically refused to allow the song "When We All Get to Heaven" to be sung with unbelievers in a community play she directed saying in public, "Not everyone's going to Heaven."

I quit going to dances when a female friend of mine expressed shock that I would go to the silly fire department dances, saying, "Preachers don't dance." I don't know that I ever did again after that.

Cheerleading: A bit more difficult to defend. I used to love cheerleading as a kid, but not for wholesome reasons. However, in elementary school we allowed my daughter to be a cheerleader b/c it was a bit different. Were she in public school today would I? No way. It's a show that features the same moves you'd probably see in a strip joint. But in it's place, it could be OK.

Beauty pageants-Depends on what the element is. Swimsuits? No way. Immodest dress? No way. But for two years I have let my daughter participate in the local fair queen contest b/c with her status as an older adopted child b/c it boosts her self-esteem. She is not allowed to reveal her breasts nor wear anything sensual. In the right atmosphere, these can be all right IMHO.

Mixed bathing: This is a mixed bag. We were always taken to the park pool and I took our little projects children to the water park. I don't get in the water unless maybe it's at a motel pool with my daughters and that's rare. They aren't allowed indecent suits and sometimes I wear a shirt myself. Usually I don't see anything tempting as much as I saw things that made me wanna gag. But I don't fall out with folks on this one at all.

All in all, we have to take things on a case by case basis before labeling it sin. Some things simply have no profit, but they cannot be outright classed as sin for which we can withdraw from a person.

Note: If someone feels this needs to be the teachers' area, feel free to move it there. But too much work went into posting this! lol

Brother Joe, I pretty much agree with you on all points.

Our son was in a physical education class in grade school where the teacher was having the early teen boys dance with the girls who were generally taller and well developed physically. It was embarassing to watch, and I am sure it was embarassing to the students. I objected and asked for him to be excused from the class. One demoninational parent said I was "pathetic".
The teacher was also having them do the "huckle buck" !

My objection to beauty pageants is the exhalting of one child above another. I feel it is unkind towards the less beautiful children.

I got a kick out of your " made me wanna gag" statement. I know what you mean.

The main thing in all these activities is to not cause someone to stumble, and to avoid every appearance of evil.

Marian

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If we live in Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal. 5.25 NJKV

There may be extremely unusual circumstances where a few of these activities may not be sinful, but those are very rare.

Agree... and I think this is something that is hard to avoid, especially with mixed swimming.

I would ask what we are teaching our children when we let them participate in these type activities when they are young. I am not sure what good can come out of it and they may easily believe that nothing is wrong with the older children participating in the sinful way that they do. Not many parents will even begin to know how to coach them properly.

Beauty pageants exalt pride... "Look at me, I am the prettiest girl here!" It causes the winner to scream... "LOOK AT ME... I WON!" It causes the losers to look at the winner and say, "I want to be like her!" It causes them to spend no telling how much money to compete for money and pride. It causes their parents and grandparents to be sinfully proud.

Jesus Christ would NEVER attend such or have anything to do with this. He would say to the girls who participate... "For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness."

He would add to those who are Christians, "You Hypocrites! So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness."

God hates pride and haughtiness. The greatest sin of all mankind is pride.

1Jo 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world--the desires [lust] of the flesh and the desires [lust] of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world.

Mat 18:7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire,
1Ti 2:10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works.

1Pe 3:3 Do not let your adorning be external--the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing--
1Pe 3:4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.

Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

Pro 21:4 Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin.

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Jam 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."



I will agree that there may be one in a thousand instances where it would be an extremely rare case that these activities would not be sinful, however, I would suggest all Christians play it safe and avoid them like the plague!

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Sonnie,

Good post. Naturally, I don't disagree with you; I just wanted to make sure we are careful about what we label as sin.

The beauty pageant is questionable to me and I've only allowed her to participate in this one pageant b/c it's not so much a look at me sort of thing, but rather a more fun event. I don't like the concept behind them, but we are grasping at straws to help her improve her self-esteem. It does seem to help b/c she loves the dressing up, etc that's involved.

But all in all, I understand your points and they aren't wrong. I just want to make sure we're careful what we label as sin.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie