When I became a Christian it was brought to my attention that members of the church (the "church" being all of those who are saved) should not celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday nor should we celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Jesus Christ. Obviously my response was one of surprise and confusion because my family had always celebrated Christmas in these ways. No doubt this was something I had to investigate. If Christmas is not a Christian holiday then exactly what is it and how did it originate?

Biblically there is absolutely no evidence that the early apostolic church celebrated Christmas; therefore we must turn to secular history to learn the origin of Christmas and its history. Our best evidence of celebrating this day originates from a pagan festival commemorating the SUN god, variously known as Saturn, Tammuz and Baal, among other names. This festival began long before the birth of Jesus. It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died. These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun. They thought this was the reason for increasing daylight. This event was cause for celebration and extremely wild excitement which I’ll not elaborate on any further due to its content. Many centuries later the Roman Catholic Church adopted this pagan festival, changing the name of the festival from Saturnalia, the birthday of the SUN god, to Christ Mass, the birthday of the SON of God, in an attempt to win over converts into the Christian faith. They have since used it to celebrate and honor the SON of God. The word "Mass" means death and was coined originally by the Roman Catholic Church, and belongs exclusively to the church of Rome. The ritual of the Mass involves the death of Christ, and the distribution of the "Host", a word taken from the Latin word "hostiall", meaning victim! In short, “Christmas” is strictly a Roman Catholic word. A simple study of the tactics of the Roman Church reveals that in every case, the church absorbed the customs, traditions and general paganism of every tribe, culture and nation in their efforts to increase the number of people under their control. In short, the Roman Church told all of these pagan cultures to bring their gods, goddesses, rituals and rites, and they would assign Christian sounding titles and names to them. Over the centuries the religious world has followed the traditions of men in celebrating this day. When Martin Luther started the reformation in the 1500’s and other reformers followed his lead, all of them took with them the paganism that was so firmly imbedded in Rome. These reformers left Christmas intact. In England, as the authorized Bible became available to the common people by the decree of King James the II in 1611, people began to discover the pagan roots of Christmas. The Puritans in England, and later in Massachusetts Colony, actually outlawed this holiday as witchcraft. Near the end of the nineteenth century, when other Bible versions began to appear, there was a revival of the celebration of Christmas. Traditions of men have carried it forward to this day.

The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 edition, says, "Christmas (i.e., the Mass of Christ)... was not among the earliest festivals of the church… it was not instituted by Christ or the apostles, or by Bible authority. It was picked up afterward from paganism.”

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 edition, adds, “Christmas… was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth… a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ's birth] in the fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered the feast to be celebrated forever on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun and at the close of the Saturnalia, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed.”

Notice how these last two recognized secular historical authorities show Christmas was not observed by Christians for the first two or three hundred years... a period longer than the entire history of the United States as a nation! Christmas entered into the Roman Church by the fourth century A.D. and it was not until the fifth century that the Roman Church ordered it to be celebrated as an official Christian festival.

Now that we realize that Christmas is not actually scriptural, let’s consider when Christ was born and what the authority of the Scriptures say about celebrating Christ. As best we can determine from the Scriptures, Jesus Christ was more than likely born in the autumn of the year. There are a few passages that give us an idea of the time of year during the infancy of Jesus…

Luke 2:7-8 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

We further learn from Solomon 2:11 and Ezra 10:9, 13, that winter was a rainy season and it would be unlikely that the shepherds could tend their flock at night, as was the Jewish custom in that day. The shepherds would bring their flock into the stables in mid October to protect them from the cold and rainy season. This would indicate that Jesus was born prior to mid October since Luke writes that the shepherds were “keeping watch over their flock by night.” We could go even further into the study of the Hebrew calendar and Luke’s writings in chapter 2 on the pregnancies of Elizabeth and Mary to ultimately determine a closer date of September as the birth month of Jesus. However, the most important issue I believe we should consider is that there is no scriptural authority for celebrating Christmas as the birthday of Christ or as a Christian holiday. Let’s consider a few passages from the apostles Peter and Paul…

Peter wrote, “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (1 Peter 4:11) and Paul wrote, “…that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written” (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Peter is explaining that whatever a person promotes within Christianity, it should be authorized by the Word of God, while Paul is explaining that whatever a person does in Christianity, it should also be authorized by the Scriptures. We know that infant baptisms, instrumental music, non-weekly communion, church raffles, religious observance of Christmas and Easter, among other things, are not authorized by the Word of God… they are not found in the Scriptures, thus they violate the principle of authority by failing to “speak as the oracles of God” and/or going “beyond the things which are written”. Therefore, Christmas cannot be celebrated as a Christian holiday or as the birthday of Christ… there is no authority for it. This does not mean that we cannot “celebrate” Christ and the fact He was born. We can most certainly rejoice in Christ, His birth and what He has done for us. As a matter of scriptural authority we are commanded by Christ himself to remember Him every Lord’s Day…

Luke 22:19-20 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Jesus Christ instituted the Lord's Supper… “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he comes.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-26 )

The Lord's Supper is Communion with Christ… “The cup of blessing that we bless is a sign of our sharing in the blood of Christ, isn't it? The bread that we break is a sign of our sharing in the body of Christ, isn't it? Because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body, because all of us partake of the one loaf.” (1 Corinthians 10:16-17)

I cannot resist asking... If Jesus, the One who suffered so horrendously for us, the One who paid the penalty for our sins, asked that we partake of the Lord's Supper "in remembrance" of Him, why would we not want to show our gratitude by REMEMBERING HIM EVERY WEEK when we come together on the first day of each week (the Lord’s Day) for worship service???

Consider what Luke wrote in Acts 20:7, “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread...” During the days of the early church the people gathered together on the first day of each week and broke bread. What has changed this pattern of remembering Christ over the years? Men have changed it to be more convenient and less time consuming... however, God has not authorized any changes to this pattern of worship. Celebrating, remembering and rejoicing in Jesus is not something we only do annually at Christmas time when so many seem to come out of the closet, or semi-annually, or quarterly, or every fifth Sunday... it is something we should desire to do every day... and certainly by obeying His very command to partake of the Lord's Supper every Lord’s Day. Remember the very words of Jesus and let them dwell in your heart and on your mind… “DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME”.

Let us celebrate Christ together as we are authorized by the Word of God. Happy holidays to you and your family!

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

That is definitely an AMEN! Well the Bible didn't give emphasis on the birth of Christ but rather than the DEATH of Christ. However, since Birth is a prerequisite to death, we cannot discount the fact that Jesus has been born from a virgin Mary (which happened to lose her virginity anymore after giving birth to Jesus' siblings). But, the Bible never ever teached to celebrate the feast of His birth on comparison to The Feast of the Passover etc. which were highlighted and pinpointed.

The idea of the Lord Supper every Sunday is the mere emphasis of the Lord's suffering, death, ressurection and the 2nd coming. This however has the greater emphasis than the Christmas that they are celebrating (which I used to celebrate also from my Year 1 to 5) =).

May our friends be enlightened by this Biblical truth.

I have struggled with this as well and the fact that many Christmas traditions are of pagan nature, however, I see nothing wrong with celebrating Christ's birth. Everything having to do with Christ is crucial including His birth. I think its wrong to make the holiday about gifts, family and traditions and forgetting the ONLY reason for the need to celebrate anything, but how can celebrating Christ (at any point of His life) be wrong???

I believe the point is well explained by Peter...

Peter wrote, “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God” (1 Peter 4:11) and Paul wrote, “…that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written” (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Peter is explaining that whatever a person promotes within Christianity, it should be authorized by the Word of God, while Paul is explaining that whatever a person does in Christianity, it should also be authorized by the Scriptures. We know that infant baptisms, instrumental music, non-weekly communion, church raffles, religious observance of Christmas and Easter, among other things, are not authorized by the Word of God… they are not found in the Scriptures, thus they violate the principle of authority by failing to “speak as the oracles of God” and/or going “beyond the things which are written”. Therefore, Christmas cannot be celebrated as a Christian holiday or as the birthday of Christ… there is no authority for it. This does not mean that we cannot “celebrate” Christ and the fact He was born.

We should celebrate the birth of Christ daily, not just set aside one time per year for it. Doing so makes us no better than the pagans who originally created the holiday. We should not treat any one day more important than the other when it comes to the birth of Christ.

It's sad that the only time many people grace the doors of the church building are on holidays such as Christmas and Easter. As if this is somehow going to make them right with God. They forsake the assembling for months and months and show up for the pagan festival time. They ignore Hebrews 10:25-26.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Amen! Christmas is a hard one for people to give up because in most cases it is filled with so many happy memories, which in turn we want our children to have. And it may seem harmless, but the rest of the world knows it began as a pagan holiday and partaking in it makes us look like hypocrites.

I might be wrong but the only "celebration" that has been mentioned in the NT is the observance of the Lord's Supper. It is the only thing that Christ asked that we observe in remembrance of Him, and it recalls the death of Christ each time it is observed. What more sums up the love, sacrifice and pure grace that was demonstrated on Calvary than the death of our Lord. He held nothing back from mankind...He gave it all.

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If we come to know only the Book but fail to come to know God through the Book, then we have failed....and God's purpose for the Book has been defeated.

The sad thing about it is, is that if you say you don't observe Christmas as Christ's birthday and don't approve of a manger scene you are automatically label as being against the Bible.
However, this does give us the opportunity to discuss the bible with denominational people. As a statement to get them thinking I ask them "Do we have to limit ourselves to just talking or thinking about Christ's birth once a year?"

Yes, and the denominational world tends to only observe the Lord's Supper once or twice a year. the rest of the time the only thing that they even remotely do is that is observed along with the Lord's Supper is contribution, but then again they have that confused with tithing.

My family does not celebrate Christmas as a celebration of Christ's birth. There is no command to do so, nor is there any approved example in the Bible. We do however think of it as a time to get together with family and friends and exchange gifts. It's a good holiday, but we treat it no different than say, Halloween. I know about the paganesque background of that day too, but that does not stop us from putting on face paint or a monster constume and pass out candy to neighbors. Harmless stuff, but a good time. However if this type of thing offends you conscience, then by all means avoid doing it.

ALL of men's days are subject to error. Think about Memorial Day...it was designed to recognize fallen soldiers in war and then expanded to remember anyone who is passed on (hence memorial), but now most of the time it is a time to go to the beach and have family gatherings and not even mention anyone who may have passed.

Thanksgiving has moved mainly from beng remembering the start of the nation and how the founders gave thanks for being helped by the natives to come together to eat...only to ise around 3am to go shopping the next morning!

July 4th, Labor Day, yes...even Christmas...are not what they were designed for.

THe only day as Christians that we are commanded to remember and recognize is the Lord's Day and that is every first day of the week (Acts 20:7). The daily thing comes from Acts 2 as the Christians met daily.

People are geting away from the truth and that is when they are led away by fables. I asked one guy about the manger scene and asked if that was what the Bible said and he said yes. So I took him to the Bible and showed how wrong it was in the way it is protrayed.

Let us take the time to first gets facts straight and then teach others about what we are to do as Christians and what not to do as Christians. SO we don't appear as the world does to the world and thereby causing some to stumble or be hindered by our actions.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Just something from my notes and a few sermons that I have preached...may it be help to someone.

What About “Christmas”??

Non-religious Observance of Christmas. Before considering the religious observance of Christmas, I wish to make a couple of observations regarding its non-religious observance. There is a huge difference between a national "holiday" and a religious "holy day!" Human authorities are divinely permitted to establish holidays to honor special people and events. No sin is committed when stores, factories and businesses close in honor of those holidays. National holidays actually establish some useful standards allowing families and friends to visit each other in such a way that they may not otherwise be allowed to do. According to Romans 14:5, Christians have the God-given right to "esteem one day above another," thus observing a holiday or holiday(s) of their choosing. No sin is committed by such action unless the Christian binds his views and practices upon others (Rom. 14:10,13). As with other national holidays, Christians may rightly use the December 25th holiday for the purpose of gathering with loved ones for whatever lawful reasons they may choose. This may even include the exchanging of gifts, which incidentally, may be done on any occasion. However, no human authority, whether church or state, has any right to establish religious holy days! This includes the establishment of December 25th as the "birthday of Christ" and using that day to commemorate the birth of Christ. Furthermore, no church has the scriptural right to incorporate the observance of Christmas as a religious and spiritual act. The New Testament authorizes no such practice. To presumptuously concoct and observe such manmade holy days is to sin against God.

The History of Christmas. The word "Christmas" comes from the Old English term Cristes maesse, meaning "Christ's mass." This expression was used to describe the worship service that was held on December 25 to commemorate Christ's birth. A Roman almanac shows Christmas first being observed on December 25th of 336 AD. This date was established in part, to compete with the pagan observance of "Saturnalia" which took place on December 17th. Also, an agreement was reached between the Western Catholic, Eastern Rite and Orthodox churches, which connected December 25th to January 6th ("Epiphany" - the appearing of Jesus), resulting in what is now known as "the twelve days of Christmas." This tradition of Christmas spread rapidly and is now recognized by most countries throughout the world.

Those who wholly associate Christmas with Christ are badly mistaken. Christmas is the result of a compilation of several different religious beliefs and cultural practices. For example, some may think gift giving has always been patterned after the practice of the wise men in Matthew 2:11. However, this is not true. Early Christians had no such custom. It was actually the Roman pagan celebration of Saturnalia that inspired this practice. Interestingly, these pagans also originated the custom of decorating houses with greenery and lights. Scandinavian and Teutonic peoples of Northern Europe decorated trees and barns in order to scare away demons.

Among other items, certain plants have become religiously associated with Christmas. Holly is used because its prickly leaves represent the crown of thorns worn by Jesus at the crucifixion, and its red berries are said to represent droplets of the Lord's blood. Poinsettia plants are based upon a Mexican legend of a child who wanted to bring a gift to the village's manger scene, but he was too poor to buy one. Legend has it that these plants first grew miraculously for him and their leaves were said to resemble the star of Bethlehem.

I observe these things, not to suggest that it is sinful to exchange gifts, string lights on your house, buy poinsettias or hang decorations on a cedar tree, but to point out that the observance of Christmas did not originate with God and is not taught in the Bible. This means that though one may celebrate Christmas day as he would Independence Day, or some other national holiday, he is not authorized to celebrate Christmas as a religious holy day.

Who Authorizes Religious Observance? No man, woman, pope, church, synod, convention or eldership has the right to establish religious holy days and authorize their special observance. This is solely the work of God. He alone is qualified to authorize certain things to be done on certain days (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). When first century Galatian Christians began to depart from divine legislation and institute their own "holy" days, they were met with the apostle's sharp reprimand. Galatians 4:10-11 says,

"You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain" (NKJV).

Why was Paul "afraid for" these Galatian saints? It was because they were making their appeal to an obsolete standard of religious authority. According to Hebrews 8:13, the arrival and ratification of the "New Covenant" rendered the Old Covenant "obsolete." Thus, New Testament Christians are not authorized to practice Old Testament law. Doing so would cause them to "fall from grace" (Galatians 5:4). The Old Law was a "tutor to bring [men] to Christ, that they might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:24-25). The key word in this passage is Christ. He has all authority and He is our authority in all matters "that pertain to life and godliness" (Matt. 28:18; Col. 3:17; 2 Pet. 1:3). Salvation is in His name (Acts 4:12).

But it may be argued that men do not appeal to the Old Testament for authority for the religious observance of Christmas, so how do the above principles apply? Perhaps another passage will help us to properly categorize these practices. To the saints at Rome, Paul acknowledged the zeal of his Jewish brethren, yet he said this zeal was "not according to knowledge" (Romans 10:2). The next two verses explain their failure. Paul said, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:3-4, NKJV).

Notice how the principle of Christ's universal authority extends itself in all directions and over all religious exercises. Christ's righteous standard is "revealed in the Gospel" (Rom. 1:16-17). By turning elsewhere for religious authority men reject this standard and are said to "establish their own righteousness." In effect, they establish their own religion in the process! They substitute their own standards and institutions in lieu of those established by Christ.

Christmas: A "Religious" Institution? We shall now make the application of the above principles. Where did either Christ, His chosen apostles, or His inspired spokesmen and writers ever instruct men to observe Christmas? Where in the Bible, can one read about the establishment of "Christmas?" Where can one read of early Christians commemorating and celebrating the birth of Christ? References to the birth of Jesus are certainly found, but where do we read of saints observing that day as a holy day? And in the absence of this scriptural authority, upon what basis do men arbitrarily establish a day of the year as the "birthday of Christ," then proceed to honor that day as such? Furthermore, if authority for the religious observance of Christmas were to be found, where is divine authority explaining and demonstrating how this day is to be commemorated and celebrated? So far, in my personal experiences in discussing this question with people, I have never heard any of these questions answered with scripture.

The Truth About Christ's Beginning. The Bible does not de-emphasize Christ's birth, but neither does it attach a deep religious significance to that day. Why is the Bible silent about when Jesus was born? After all, exact dates are given for many other things! Why does the Bible say nothing about the need for Christians to remember and honor the day of Christ's birth? Had God chosen to, He could have told us to remember Christ's birth just as easily as He told us to "remember" His death. I would propose two possible explanations for God not authorizing us to commemorate Christ's birth.

1. God wanted mankind to emphasize, commemorate and honor Christ's death, rather than His birth (Matt. 26:26-29; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 11:23-29). It was through His death that Jesus would "draw all men to Him" (Jn. 12:32). It was through His death that Jesus offered redemption (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 1:7). And it was His death that provided the avenue of man's reconciliation with God (Rom. 5:6,8,10; 2 Cor. 5:14-21).

2. Christ's physical birth did not mark His beginning. In the case of ordinary humans, God forms their spirit with the formation of their body (Zech. 12:1). This was not the case with Jesus. His spirit preexisted His body. He was "in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1-3). Though the baptizer was older than Christ in physical age, yet Jesus preexisted John, and was eternally older than John (Jn. 1:30). The same was true of Abraham. Though Abraham lived 2000 years before Christ, Jesus preexisted Abraham by eternity (Jn. 8:58).

There was a priest/king named Melchizedek who lived in days of Abraham. The Hebrew writer compared him to the Son of God by saying he "had neither beginning of days, nor yet end of years" (Heb. 7:3). You see friend, Jesus has always existed and is always the same (Heb. 13:8). His physical birth did not bring Him into existence; it merely provided shape to His preexistent and intrinsic form. That birth gave Jesus the likeness and appearance of a man (Phil. 2:6-8). Though the Bible does call it a "birth," yet that birth was so very different from normal human births that it stands in its own separate classification: the class of incarnation! God became enveloped in flesh (Jn. 1:14; Matt. 1:18-23). Birthdays celebrate one's beginning: Christ had no beginning. By focusing upon Christ's alleged "birthday," as religious Christmas observers do, they detract from Christ's deity and exalt His transient physical nature. They ignore what the Bible teaches about Christ's real purpose for coming to the earth.

Conclusion: Those who celebrate December 25th, as a religious holy day must admit that they have absolutely no biblical authority for doing so! Many will say, "Well, He had to be born on some day - we just pick December 25th as that day!" Beyond being admittedly presumptive, this claim really misses the point. We are not concerned over people believing that Jesus was born on some day: We are concerned that religious people have established that day as a religious holy day, and proceed to religiously celebrate that day without God's approval! This should raise some eyebrows, but I am afraid too many people have wandered too far from the scriptures to even be concerned about this at all. The important question is not what everyone else thinks and is doing, but what am I doing? What about you, dear reader? Are you participating in an unauthorized religious practice?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Sonnie started it!!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

D... just reading again your lesson about Christmas. I failed to ever tell you just how excellent of a lesson it is. Thank you!

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Just one question....what about the Santa Claus aspect ? Is not that lying? ( Okay that was 2 questions.
Frankly, I absolutely abhor it. It is an abomination to God to atribute His attributes to a mythical figure.

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Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10

I would kindly offer sister Marian that the context needs to be kept in mind.

We are not lying to our children when we read Peter Pan to them. We are not lying when we let them watch Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. We are not lying when we share any type of fiction work with them. I love Moby Dick but it is fiction. The bible does not condemn the use of fiction. It condemns lying to deny the truth. Fiction and lying are not the same thing.


Our family celebrates Christmas as a secular holiday. We have Santa and all the works. We do not have angels, manger or any connection with Jesus being born. The songs we sing have no religious connection; such as Away in the manger, or Holy Night. We sing Santa Clause is coming to town.

I don't know what type of Santa you are referencing above, but the Santa we talk about does not have and is not compared to God and his attributes.

• Is Geppetto God because he created Pinocchio out of wood and he came to life? I think not.
• Why then must Santa be compared to God because he "knows what you are thinking"?

Both of these are works of fiction made to stir the imagination of Children. I grew up on the wonderful classical works of Children's fiction (Old Lady That Lived in A Shoe- not really! Mother Goose- no way! They were and are great works of fiction that are not in any way in opposition to scripture.

Santa is a work of fiction. Like you it grieves me to see people combining a work of fiction with that birth of Christ. We must continue to teach the world that each is separate and apart from one another.

Brotherly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

Sorry, brother Don, but I do not see any resemblence between the stories that are read to little children, and the Santa Claus thing. I do not know of anyone who decorates their house and yard with the story book characters that you spoke of. Or take them to set on their laps and ask them for gifts. Or eagerly await for them to come to their house and leave them gifts. The truth is that the loved ones are who give the children gifts.
I wonder how many children come to wonder if the God that the parents speak of is another fairy tale. My mother read stories to us, but she never ever attemped to force us to believe that they were real.
There is not one thing that is true about the entire observance, except the few parts that have scriptures back of them, and that part was not set aside for a yearly observance by God.

If you (meaning any one with children) must read to them about Santa Claus, you need to tell them the truth of the matter......that is is all make believe.

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Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10

Sister Marian, Let me kindly point out that It doesn't matter if people decorate their house or not. Fiction is still fiction. You defeat your own argument by allowing for some fiction but not the "Santa Clause fiction". Putting up a Santa Clause in your yard does not make him real.

I would also like to kindly remind you that people do take their children to see other fictional characters. In fact, they pay a lot of money to do so. I met the Lone Ranger when I was a child. I also met Aqua Man and Bugs Bunny. In fact, I am not ashamed to admit that I cried to sit on Bugs Bunny's lap! Surely my dear sister in Christ, you have heard of Disneyland? Millions of little children go there each year and meet their favorite characters. They dance with them, sit on their laps, get pictures taken and beg for hugs. To these little children these fictional characters are just as real as Santa Clause.

It seems to me from what you are saying, that as parents we should demand a sign out front of Disneyland with a disclaimer for all the little children to read: "Go Home. These characters are not real. They are fake. They are made up. Parents, tell your children these characters are fake and stop teaching them lies." Now, I say this in jest to show just how far your argument would have to go. When I read the Three Little Bears to my sons I did not begin by telling them, "Now, I am going to read you a story that is not real. It is all made up. You should not believe it at all." I read them the story and watched their excitement. I will add, that not one of my children believes the Three Bears are real and God is fake. They have been taught as they matured what fiction is and how stories bring us excitement and joy. In fact, some stories are even scary! They do not question the validity of God because when they were young I read them "Green Eggs and ham". Even our brother Paul allowed for a childhood (1 Corinthians 13:11). Notice how he talks about "speaking as a child, understanding as a child, thinking as a child". Fictional stories are written to capture the imagination of a child. They are not written with the purpose of pushing lies off on a child. As that mature and begin to put away childish things they come to learn, know and understand. My children know we bring them presents, yet, they love to what Santa Clause is coming to Town. We even track his movements on Christmas Eve trough NORAD.

To read what you have written gives me concern that you may get cold chills down your back when you walk through the fiction section of the public library. Please don't think, "That Huck Finn, what a fake!" Enjoy his adventures and be encouraged by them to relive days gone past and summer adventures you had. This story and others helps children to grow in their imagination. I wanted to be a pirate when I was 8! I would play in the woods all day like I was a pirate.

I will kindly point out that you position is inconsistent. Perhaps what you are felling towards Santa Clause is because of the error people have in mixing religion in with it. I too feel that angst. I teach against it. But I do not fear a fictional character and my children being exposed to it when it is handled properly. The NT is silent on religious holidays like Christmas, Easter, etc. As such (since they were not around!) I see no authority to celebrate them as religious holidays. That being said, I enjoy the secular aspect of both Christmas and Easter and have taught my children to enjoy this side as well and not to bring in that which the Bible does not authorize.

Kindly and in appreciation of a dear sister in Christ,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

Brother Don, if you cannot see the difference in all the things you sited, and the "worship" of Santa Claus, I cannot think of anything else to say, except I feel very sad that you chose to speak to me in such a manner.
I will end my part of this conversation with the conclusion that there is no differance with brethren adopting pagan ways, than there is denominational flock adopting most of the ways of the world into their lives.
If I am wrong with my stand, I do not believe I have lost anything. I cannot believe God will condemn me for rejecting pagan holidays.
If all who love those holidays are wrong, they may have an eternity to regret it.

It grieves me that so many of my brethren get so very angry at me for rejecting those pagan holidays, and the symbols that go with them.

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Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10

I do not see anger Marian, I see a very kind, but straightforward response. Personally I fall in between you and Don. I didn't like being told about Santa when I was a kid, I knew he was fake, and I spent my Christmas eve nights attempting to prove my parents were Santa. So I understand the view of not carrying on so with children.

But I would never tell a parent that they sinned in doing so, as I don't believe that is the case. Nor would I encourage my kids (fictional kids right now) to ruin the excitement other kids may take in Santa, although I very much did that when I was young.

Like Don I never have, nor will I ever equate Christmas with a religious holiday. My dad told me that he was grown before he even knew that Christmas was "supposed" to be a celebration of Christ's birthday. I don't think you will see any Christian poster here celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday.

We use it as a time to get together with family. A time to focus on giving, not getting. A time of relaxation, and a time of love. I cannot see how getting together with family and doing those things is pagan in any way shape or form.

The days of the week and months of the year have pagan beginnings, should we reject the calendar we have now, and create a new one with new names? Just because something began as pagan doesn't mean it still is. And just because others pollute a celebration doesn't mean we have to abstain from doing so correctly.

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

I am in agreement with what Brother Lee has posted. There appears to me to be some confusion on what the "context" is regarding a "Holiday".

My dear sister in Christ, let me kindly say again, I would not promote the "worshiping" of Santa anymore than I would promote or support the "worshiping" of Charlie Brown. You are confusing apples and oranges. If you are saying the reading of "Twas The Night before Christmas" is worship of Santa than we are not in agreement at all. If you are saying that the combining of Santa with Christ in a religious context is wrong, we are in complete agreement.

Marian, I am truly sorry that you feel this way. I simply presented an opposing voice to what you had posted. If you feel that it is unkind then we are once again in disagreement. It was not intended in any way to be unkind.

Let me please say that I'm unclear what you mean by "pagan ways". Am I a pagan for celebrating Thanksgiving? Am I a pagan for celebrating birthdays? Am I a pagan for celebrating Valentines Day? Or am I just a pagan for celebrating Christmas and Easter in a non religious fashion? Which is it? All or some? Please help me to better understand what you are saying.

My sister I would agree with you to a point. By calling me a "pagan" you strain a relationship between a brother and a sister in Christ and accuse me of advocating that which I do not advocate. I agree with you that Christmas should have no "religious" connection whatsoever- please hear that my sister.

Again my dear sister, I am unclear in what "holidays" you are referring to. All of them or just those that seek to add a religious component? Are you saying that Hell will be filled with those who gave a Valentines Day card to their wife or a birthday card to their child? Will Hell be filled with those who celebrated Thanksgiving? Or are you making the argument that Hell will be filled with those who celebrate "Holy Days" (holidays) in a religious context not authorized in scripture?

Marian, If you are referring to me as being angry, you have set yourself up as a martyr falsely. I am not angry with you my dear sister in Christ. I have just pointed out some flaws in your logic. If you don't want to celebrate Christmas then by all means don't. If you don't want to celebrate Valentines Day, then don't. If you are opposed to Thanksgiving, then please do not participate in it. My point to you is and has been, that no one here would argue for a religious Holy Day not authorized in scripture.

I cherish our relationship as a brother and sister in Christ,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

I have got to speak my peace of bite my tongue. Its less painful to speak.

Santa Clause is a falsehood to tell children. He cannot tell when someone is noughty or nice. He can' deliever all those presents on just one evening. Raindeer cant fly. Any one who says that Santa knows when we are sleeping or when we are awake is saying that he has the same powers as God. And if we teach this to our little ones, we are putting Santa on the same plain as God.

As far as christmas being a holiday, I believe in Xmas only. There is no Christ in this holiday. Christ is in everyday. We exchange gifts all throughout the year, not just this time of the year. There is nothing special about this time of year than any other day except that familys get together and have a big meal. and buy each other gifts.

I dont come to this site very often anymore because of some of the things that are said to other Christians. Marian and I are alike in many of our beliefs. So when you disagree with her you are diagreeing with me.

Personally if you teach Santa, you are teaching a lie. My parents told us from birth that it was a lie.

Here again, I talk too much and open my mouth too often but God will judge me if I am wrong. You all can believe what you want. I know that I have no tact. I just speak what I think is right.

Your brother, James

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"Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

James,

I'll let someone else speak to the content of your post, but I have a concern here that I believe cannot be overlooked.

You are accusing posters on this forum of behavior that is not Christian, and by extension you are accusing the forum. I am afraid brother that I cannot allow you to make such an accusation without proving it. In fact it is your Christian obligation to go to the offending party/parties and make that known. This forum is not a congregation, but I believe if that is not successful then you need to go to the leadership of the site with your concerns. And allow us to handle it. If you are not satisfied with our leadership then you may make that known. It is not healthy nor Christian to make broad sweeping accusations of this nature.

I also have a few questions for you. If we disagree with Marian or you, are we automatically mean spirited? If we say in as kind a way as possible that we don't agree with something, have we by the very nature of our disagreement, offended you? Is it possible for us to disagree without being disagreeable?

We were ready to allow this conversation to settle. We weren't going to bring it up again. Brother I would be willing to not eat meat for your conscience, but I cannot allow what you have posted above to go unanswered.

We love you here.

Brotherly,
Lee

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

I don't know of anyone that teaches these things are real. Santa and his "powers" are fictional.

Just like Pinocchio nose growing or that a "boy" could be made from wood and come to life. The three bears did not really live in a house did they? They did not really sleep in beds did they? The three little pigs did not really build three houses did they? A wolf did not really huff and puff and try to blow them down did he? I could go on and on. If someone taught these things are being real they would be wrong. Yet in telling the story they are not lying. When a child goes to Disneyland we are not lying to them are we? When a child goes to six flags and sits on Bugs Bunny's lap we are not lying to them are we?

I will say it again, I do not know of any teacher on this site that teaches Christmas as a "religious" holiday. Or that "Christ" is in this holiday. Santa has nothing to do with Christ.

Lee has addresses this part of your post effectually.

Kindly,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

I was hurt last evening when I read the statements on the article about Xmas. And I do eay things that I regret later. And the statement about the way some on the forum talk to Christians was uncalled for and very slanderous. I do not always let the Holy Spirit lead me in the right things to say. My "old man" is still having a war with the new man.

I do disagree with some things that are said on the site. And I have spoken up a few times with my opinions. I have said that I feel that you are too harsh to some of the non-Christians that have come to this site.

I get confused about this time of the year. With all the hoopla about a decorated tree, presents, lights,etc, and the Church teaches that this is not a religious holiday which it isn't. But many still get caught up in Santa and his simularities to Christ. As Christians, I thought we were to set examples for the world. I dont understand how we can speak against Christ in christmas and in turn idolize Santa.

I dont decorate our house cause I want everyone to know that I am not celebrating Christmas. Even the word used written or spoken out loud startles me. Can you picture Jesus going Christmas shopping, telling the children about Santa, and decorating his house with santas and elves? I'm sorry I cant.

I do ask the site and all the manages for forgiveness to my statement of 'things that were said to other Christians'. I'm still growing as a Christian and make many mistakes along the way. I repeat mistakes sometimes and regret them later. This is one of those times.

If you feel that I should be booted off, I will understand. No hard feelings.

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"Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

James, I accept your apology and I will forgive and forget. I know we all say things that we regret, and sometimes those things hurt people. We should be willing to strive to understand where each of us is coming from. Be willing to love one another and help one another.

I will strive to be understanding here. I believe that this is a matter of opinion, and the last thing I would want to do is cause you offense. However I would ask that you not accuse others of sin as far as this is concerned. If you want to discuss the issues, then we are happy to do so, provided that we can do so in a rational reasonable manner, without getting angry with or offended at each other. I think you'll find varying degrees of opinion as far as Christmas is concerned. But not one teacher on this board accepts Christmas as a religious holiday, nor celebrates it as Christ's birthday. I want everyone to be clear on that.

Now as to the treatment of others. As great a blessing as this forum is, and as wonderful a tool as we have, it isn't perfect. We communicate much better when we have sight and sound. We make mistakes with the written word, in writing it and in reading it. You can't hear the tone of voice nor the smile on their face. There are several guys who literally scared me online. I was afraid to say anything for fear of getting it wrong. But eventually I met those men, and I realized that I was totally wrong about them. Went back and read what they wrote and it came across completely differently. No longer did I see the stern look and wagging finger, but I saw the kind smile and felt the hand over my shoulder. In fact they are the kindest most gentle men you can know. They'll give you the shirt of their back and their shoes too if you asked for them. You see the misinterpretation of their intentions was my fault.

We can all be guilty of coming across poorly, but others can be guilty of assuming bad intentions. I think we would all do well to give each other the benefit of the doubt as far as this is concerned. If there is a particular instance where you are not comfortable let that individual know. But let us all strive to assume the best rather than the worst.

I think brother, if you saw what we see on a daily basis, perhaps you would understand why we sometimes do what we do.

Nobody is booting anybody off over this. This situation is where brothers get together and work it out.

Brotherly,
Lee

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV