A few years after I became a Christian, I realized that the observance of Christmas was contrary to the scriptures. We, my husband and I, ceased observing it in any manner. Our son does not go along with our/my views on it, and he and our granddaughters observe it. I do not know to what extent. I know our granddaughter's mother goes 'whole hog' with all the trappings . She also collects Santa Clauses. I detest the Santa Claus thing. I cannot understand how anyone who loves God can condone such an image of one who has all the attributes of God ! To me, it is blasphemous.
In our little congregation the members know how I feel and respect my feelings. Members from other congregations get a lick out of annoying me with their Santa Claus pins, earrings, and sweat shirts.
I attend a Golden Year's class, at a nearby town, that is hosted by a congregation there. Some of the brethren do wear their Christmas trappings to the special dinner that is had every year at that date. I have taken to avoiding going that day, to prevent my being offensive to them, and to prevent myself being offended.
I know, the scripture says if any one has faith , have it to themselves. My faith says ...stay away from pagan holidays/holydays.
I have even had brethren get guite angry at me because I have spoken against their favorite Day, and Santa Claus.
That entire month is hard for me to get through. If I could leave the TV off, and not go to town during all the hooplah, I would be fine. And now the advertizements are starting before Halloween (another really detestable observence).
I am actually concerned about the souls of those who observe pagan holidays. Paul said " You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in
vain." Galatians 4.10-11. I know he is refering to Jewish holydays, but how are pagan ones any better?

Well one thing is to remember that Paul was also speaking to Gentiles at the time, too. And they did obseve pagan days as well as some Jewish days.

One of the first things that I ask is this...what are we (as Christians) TOLD and COMMANDED to observe? When that question is answered, then the further need for discussion is topped right there. But then I know the question comes up..."Well, can I celebrate (this) or (that) with being in danger of sinning?" That is where we must be sure of our conduct in this world because the world is watching us very carefully.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Brother White, this is one of the things I am getting at. When you drive by a brethren's house, and it is decorated in exactly the same manner as the denominational people ,and the non believers, what is the passerby thinking about our saying we do not celebrate such days religiously?

Also, isn't telling your children there is a Santa Claus lying to them ? How is such a lie justified ?

We use Christmas as we do other things -- as an opportunity to teach. Others look at us and think us odd because we do not accept manger scenes and the like. Yet we exchange gifts and sing Jingle Bells. We teach first by example (no religious connotation to anything we do, no sunrise services, no virgin Mary, etc) and secondly, when the opportunity arises for discussion, verbally. I see this as no different than how we are to teach in anything else -- we must be always ready to give account for the hope that is within us.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I view the specific holiday as "Christmas" as I view the holiday know as Meomorial day. They were invented by man and nothing more. If someone wishes to decorate their house with all the lights...it is no different than putting up red, white, and blue decorations up for the 4th of July. BUT when we do so, we need to be ready to expain what and why we are doing so.

When you call a holiday "pagan", do you know what you are meaning?? There is a difference in their pagan holidays and holidays that are celebrated now.

As for the Santa thing...we could go on and say the same thing about the tooth fairy and easter bunny and many other littlfe fables that have been told to children. Are we intentionally decieving or what?

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I am sorry, but I see a great differance in children's imagination in their playing, and in adults teaching them that something is true that isn't.

I view Santa Claus as a long, extended game we play with our children. At some point, they catch on. Then you have a big laugh, but you keep buying them "Santa" presents because point of fact is that every child has his/her own personal Santa -- his parents.

Marian -- certainly if it bothers your conscience, you shouldn't do it.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I don't lie to my kids about Santa.

Obviously, the 15-year-old knows the truth, but the 5-year-old doesn't and enjoys Santa. I tell her stuff and if she asks questions, I carefully answer them so as to not lie. I may answer a question with a question? "Is Santa real, Daddy?" "Well, didn't you get presents last year? Didn't you see him at the mall?" etc. But if she ever flat out insists on the truth, she'll get it. I just hope she waits a while and enjoys the spirit of the season.

You asked about the Galation saints observing holidays. Paul, I think, meant that they were religiously observing holidays. Recall that the apostle said that observance of days was not wrong. "One who observes a day, to the Lord he observes it. One who does not observe a day, to the Lord he does not observe it." Here, the apostle was speaking of private observance of days. In the Galation churches, they were apparently forcing others to observe days, which is quite a different matter.

I'll lay this one on you: Jesus observed holidays, even those not sanctioned by God! In John 10, we find Him at the Feast of Dedication, which to our knowledge, was never sanctioned by God. It commemorated Judas Maccabeas (sp) cleansing the temple after it was taken over by invaders and a pig was sacrificed on the altar. Not only was our Master at the celebration (a religious event), but He was found walking on the only part of the original temple to survive--Soloman's Porch.

In the end, sister, you have freedom to celebrate or not celebrate, but I don't see a condemnation of the celebration of holidays.

I don't consider it lying to your child by perpetuating the yarn about Santa. It just makes it more enjoyable for the kid. It's no different that telling a bedtime story that you start with Once Upon A Time...

I see that,( as usual ), I pretty well stand alone on this. As Laura said " If it bothers your conscience, you shouldn't do it", and it does bother my conscience.
I could quote several more scriptures that I believe back up my 'conscience', but have found from experience, that it is equal to attempting to convince the denominations that instrumental music is contrary to God's will.

I wonder if you all take the same stance on Halloween ?

I do not have issues with children dressing up in costumes and going around knocking on doors for candy. The origins of Halloween have been lost in the years and it has evolved to have a different meaning today. I do believe that there are certain costumes that should not be worn because doing so would violate various Biblical principles. I would no more celebrate Halloween in a religious context than I would Christmas.

Are you okay with celebrating our Independence Day and birthdays?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Just to demonstrate that the world's view of Christmas has changed... my former boss was an atheist. He celebrated Christmas non-religiously in the exchanging of gifts and a time for family to get together.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Laura, I am fine with observing Independence day. It has absolutely nothing to do with paganism or religion. Birthdays are okay also, but I do wonder about the fact that the only birthdays that the scriptures mention is Job's sons;Pharoah ( Gen. 40.20; and Herod ( Matt 14.6 and Mark 6.21 ).

BTW, my beliefs have nothing at all to do with the JW's beliefs. Mine come from searching the scriptures for myself.

I have no problem with Memorial day, and with Thanksgiving ( only it ought to be everyday).

As for giving gifts, I have my own tradition of giving my Granddaughters gifts on Thanksgiving, because I am thankful that I have them.

Also, I was raised with the traditional Christmas beliefs, and sang and acted in school plays at Christmas. I did all of it when our son was small also, but we never played Santa Claus at our house. I do not remember an issue being made about Santa Claus. I certainly never took him to see "Santa Claus", and had no desire to have his picture taken on the 'jolly' man's lap.

Bob, the scriptures that immediately come to mind are the ones in the Old Testament where God told the Israelites to not go the way of the heathen when they went into their countries. Jeremiah 10.2 is one (I know...it goes on to speak of the making of Idols to worship). Ezekial 11.12 is another ( both it and the one in Jeremiah say "Gentiles" in the NKJV). The heathen are spoken against over and over in the Old Testament. The word is used very seldom in the New Testament, and the main thing the disciples were to teach the Gentiles was to " abstain from things poluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood." Acts 15.20 In verse 29 Paul adds " if you keep yourselves from these, you do well. "

I suspect I could be classed as a 'weak brethren'. It certainly does place a heavy burden on me because of my belief. It would be so much more fun to just put it all aside and go along with the world.

Well I have to agree with you on the photos with Santa, but mainly because 1) I hate crowds, and 2) I don't know those men and frankly there are a bunch of immoral perverts out there. I never was too keen on my kids sitting on a stranger's lap.

I believe the OT scriptures you raise are speaking of following the heathen to engage in immoral acts and worship idols which 1) is called adulterous because we are to only worship God and 2) requires immoral behavior in most cases. We've been studying a bit about idol worship on Sunday mornings. I'll spare the details. IMHO, this has nothing to do with observing a day that many in the world observe in a non-religious manner. Another example would be New Year's day. On this day, a large percentage of the population celebrates by going out "partying" to get drunk, which is sinful. One might say to observe a day that others use as an excuse to sin is in itself sinful. I do not agree. My celebration of that day does not mean that I agree with their behavior in any way, and my staying sober while celebrating allows me to teach by example.

One thing you raised previously... the issue about "Santa" being God. I've never heard that, so obviously I never associated the two. I can say this: my husband has been known to say that many have morphed their view of God to be nothing more than a big "Santa" in the sky. The concept of Santa is no where near God in nature. Santa is more like grandpa in my view. [ You may not believe this, but I recently saw where someone was discussing God and referred to Him as "Papa"!!! That is SO wrong. I don't know where to start... ]

( I hope this makes sense. I'm in the car typing and really exhausted. I fear I ramble on. ) BTW, your Thanksgiving tradition sounds wonderful.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Sorry ROBERT ! I don't know why I did that??? I am afraid I have known more Bob's than Robert's.

I would have to say...it is the Santa Claus thing that upsets me most. If the hype was not so blatant, and did not depict 'him' with the attributes of God, I could probably overlook it. Besides, what is wrong in having your children know that the gifts came from you ? Also, doesn't every good gift come from God ? I have a lot less problem with the birth of Jesus part, than I do the Santa Claus bit. After all, we know that Jesus was born, and placed in a manger, and most of the rest of the Christmas story is based on the truth. The Santa Claus story is miles away from the truth!

The scriptures make it very plain that God hates lies. I can think of nothing that I hate more than lies.
Espacially when they are an affront against God.

If the Muslims,( and other religions who are becoming so prevelant in the USA), manage to get their religious observances popular, will it be okay for Christians to observe them as long as they are not doing it "religiously" ? Espacially if they contain things that are fun for the children ? If the merchants are selling things that appeal to 'our' children, and they are highly advertized on TV, and a day is set aside to observe it, will it be okay ? where do we draw the line ?

" If anyone loves father, mother, sister, brother, son or daughter, more that Me he is not worthy of Me."
I do not think it is a sign that I do not love my son and granddaughters because I love God more.

Does "keeping yourselves unspotted from the world' just apply to the 'thou shalt nots', and to religious observances?

Oh, and one more thing....why do adults ( even brethren) ask me " What did Santa Claus give you? "

Laura, I didn't say anyone said Santa Claus was God. I said he is given the attributes of God...i.e. he sees all and knows all, and rewards the good, but punishes the bad.
He is an icon, which is very close to being an idol. As angry as some get when I speak against him, he just as well be their idol. I honestly think many get angrier about that then they do the speaking against God !

Hi Marian,

I not sure about the "sees all and knows all" part. There is the part of the song, "he sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good..." Who is it that knows when a child is sleeping or awake? Who is it that knows when a child has been behaving or not? Who is it that is to not "spare the rod"? Who is it that is not to provoke a child to anger? Is it not the child's own parents? Santa to me has always had the attributes of and stood in for mom and dad. I've never thought of those attributes as belonging to God.

Now, in so much as the attributes of parents can be seen as similar to the attributes of God when one examines the analogy of a father to son and God being our Father and us being adopted sons, I supposed one could draw that line. Maybe some do. I just never did.

I am curious. Do you believe it is okay to celebrate Christmas religiously as long as we leave Santa out?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Oh dear, I am getting the same responses here as I do on the City-Data "christianity" forum. My words are being twisted to fit the views of the readers !

Bro. Lukenbill. I don't know how old you are, but I imagine it is much less tham my 75 years ??? I have heard of instances where children questioned their parents about God when they found out that the santa story was not true. Their thoughts were...if their parents lied about santa, why not about God ?

Laura, now it is my turn to say....I never heard of anyone equating santa with parents. That makes a very comforting theory !

My feelings toward xmas came a long time before I ever read these sites.:


http://www.bibletruths.org/holidays/...Greetings.html

http://www.bibletruths.org/holidays/...Christmas.html


http://www.bsu.edu/web/01bkswartz/xmaspub.html


http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn31/christmas.htm

NO Laura, I do not think it is okay to celebrate Christmas as Christ's birth. I hate the very usage of Christ's name in this pagan observance. Just think about it for a minute ! Where does the word 'mas' originate from ? It doesn't take much to realize it is "mass" . Who celebrates Mass ? And exactly what does Mass mean ? It certainly does not mean "Birth".

We like to think our country has not an established religion, but if not...why is a Catholic Mass made a national hoilday ?

I think I need to be content to contend for the faith with the naysayers on City-Data. It is less disturbing than having my own brethren being offended at my beliefs in the fact that the word of God contains "all things that pretain to life and Godliness".

Marian,

I haven't seen where anyone is offended by your beliefs. I have seen where many have offered the reasoning behind why they don't have a problem with the secular side of celebrating Christmas. As has already been stated, if you have an issue with celebrating the holiday in any form, then you should not celebrate it. And others should be respectful of that decision.

Jason

Marian,

I am confused. I thought we were having a brotherly/sisterly discussion here. I am not sure what you mean by "My words are being twisted to fit the views of the readers !"??? Can you give an example?

I wasn't using this as a point of argument to discount your feelings. I was stating a point of fact about how I personally think of it (and always have) and that I've never heard others say what you are saying. I also explained what I believe the attributes of "Santa" are equated to: that of parents. Have you ever heard the song, "I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus"? That certainly isn't God they're talking about! Would you care to address the possibility of Santa's attributes being that of parents?

Please be assured this question was not intended to try to "catch" you in anything. I simply asked this question for clarification because you said you didn't have a problem with religious things that are associated with Christmas. Perhaps you meant you didn't have a problem with these religious things in general, but not in association with Christmas? That wasn't clear. I wanted to make sure I correctly understood you. I am glad we see eye-to-eye on this point.

I am well aware of the origins of the holiday as it is one of my husband's favorite "devotional" topics in December. If we go back all the way to the beginning, it's actually pagan, not Catholic. Point of fact is that Christmas is actually rooted in a pagan day for worshiping "the son god", which came LONG before the Catholics. They simply slapped a new name and meaning on it to suit them since they couldn't rid themselves of the pagan rituals. Just as the Catholics changed the meaning of the day, so have secular humanists -- the day now has secular, non-religious meanings and is basically just an extension of Thanksgiving. There's ample proof for this claim: just look at TV (all the ballgames) and the cries from those who DO celebrate the day religiously ("Put Christ back in Christmas", they exclaim! Harrumph! Christ belongs in EVERY day!) If it were a religious-only holiday (be it pagan or Catholic), then I would agree it would be wrong to celebrate as we have no authority to pick a day to either worship as pagans or to celebrate Christ's birth. God told us what He wanted in that regard: to observe Jesus' death on the first day of the week.

Just because we disagree does not mean we are offended by your beliefs. I respect you and the fact that you are standing for what you believe. Trust me, I'd have little respect if you believed it wrong and did it anyway. But at the same time, would you actually have respect for others if they didn't stand up for what they believe? That's all that's happening here. We can have disagreements, but we must do so respectfully and with the love that Christ demands of us.

Sisterly,

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Laura, this is something else I have wondered about. Does the world's observance of Christmas, as the birthday of Christ, ever convert someone to Christ ?

I have no problem with families getting together on any national holiday. I would like to do so with my family, whether it be my fleshly family, or my spiritual family. The problem is...if it is during the Xmas holiday, their home would be filled with the trappings of the holiday, and that would be disturbing to me.
So it is best that I stay at home..just the 2 of us, and observe it as we would any other day. But it is a very lonely time for me, because I know almost everyone else is wrapped up in their festivities. It actually disturbs me to think that some day,( in the not too distant future), I may be confined to a center where I will be captive to their observances. May God have mercy on me, and either cause my views to be changed, or prevent my ever having to go to such a place. I think I must have a touch of the Essene in me. I do not want to be 'of this world', but I know I must be 'in this world'

It would please me if the name was changed to something that all could identify with, like Family Day, or Friendship Day, or Brotherly Love Day, or Appreciation Day. But that would not work, because the merchants would not be profiting from it, and that is the main theme now...the profiting, and the partying.

Marian,

Even if the name were changed, many would still celebrate it in exactly the same way, even those of us who place no religious significance on the day.

Jason

Hi Marian,

I'm not sure I understand your question. The gentleman I mentioned doesn't celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday. He celebrates it as a family time. I have indeed used Christmas, among other things to talk to him about God and the difference between Christianity by the world's standards and Christianity in the Bible. Has he been converted? No. But it has indeed created an opportunity for discussion. I still hold out hope for him and as opportunities present themselves, I do discuss religion with him.

I can see how this would be a problem for you. Just so you know you are not alone, a preacher at a former congregation did not celebrate Christmas. His issue was not with "santa claus" but rather with the trees. We were all careful to not make it a point of division.

I have no problem calling it by another name. Xmas is fine by me. Honestly, I say "happy holidays" rather than "merry christmas" when at work because there are some who are offended by christmas (for reasons other than yours), and it is not my intent to be offensive. That is my personal doing and I don't bind that on anyone else.

Sisterly,

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I am asking that you all pray for me that I can raise above the discomfort this causes me every year. I know God wants us all to rejoice and be at peace in this life.
I cannot think it is because of our aging, and the responsibilities that I have had put on me, that is making me so touchy in this respect, because it was in 1974 that I first came to the realization that the Christmas season was so contrary to the will of God.
We still lived in Idaho then, and I even wrote a letter to the Twin Falls Idaho newspaper's "Letters to the Editor" page, offering a $1,000 reward to anyone who could show me a scripture saying Dec. 25th was Jesus' birthday. The local paper sent it to AP, and I got letters and phone calls from all over the USA. Most of them were favorable, and there were no 'takers', except there were a few weirdos who thought they had proof, one from the book of Habbakuk, and one from a mathematical equation ! I still have all the letters, and the clippings.
So, you see, this is not something new I have come up with in my old age.

If the subject had not came up on that other thread, I would not have brought it up. It really is my own "snake to kill", so to speak. It is apparently one of my "thorns in the flesh".

I thank you all, who are attempting to reason with me, but it will take an act of God ( I think) for me to get rid of this conviction.

Laura, I am sorry you did not understand my question about anyone being converted due to the Christmas observance. I meant the Birth of Jesus being observed, not the teachings that you and others may have done at the time of that holiday. I thought it was pretty clear as to what I was asking.

You certainly have them, sister.

Sorry for my denseness here. The gentleman I mentioned was not observing the day as Christ's birthday. This is from whence my confusion arises. Do you mean how effective might one be in using this holiday as a means to teach and convert those who DO celebrate the day a Christ's birthday?

BTW. This gentleman was very curious to find a "Christian" who did not celebrate the day as the birth of the Savior. He thought it peculiar and was very open to hear and understand why. This is very different (generally speaking) from my experience with religious people who DO celebrate the day in a religious manner.

Sisterly,

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)