No, I mean, has the observance of Dec. 25th as Jesus' birthday ever caused a non-believer to become a Christian ?
I understand taking the opportunity of using the observance to teach others the truth. In a way, that is what I am trying to do.

Okay... if I get your point right, then my question would be "Has attending a ballgame ever caused a non-believer to become a Christian?" I don't think this is the standard by which we are to judge the rightness or sinfulness of activities in which we may choose to engage. If it is, then we need to rethink most everything we do in life. Does that make sense?

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

I am beginning to think I do not speak the same language as most other people do ! Have you never heard Christians say that there is good in the Christmas story because it makes people think about Jesus ? I have. I really doubt that a ball game would make anyone think about Jesus ????
Maybe my generation thinks differantly than yours does ?

I will try to explain....I have been told that it is wrong to try to take Christ out of Christmas, because Christmas is a way to get people to think about Christ. Well...the only way they may think of Him, is as an infant in a manger ! I really doubt if that would cause anyone to become a believer.

Easter is more likely to, if it is about Christ's sacrifice on the cross, and His resurrection, and not about Easter Eggs and Bunny Rabbits ! Now don't get me wrong ! I am not a fan of Easter either. The word was a mistranslation in the KJV anyway. It should have been Passover.
Naturally, any Christian knows we observe His death and resurrection every first day of the week.

Is it reasonable to think that any so called holiday that is tied in some way to God, left up to the world to decide, would ever have any Truth or consistancy with the scriptures?

That is why the nation or world could never have any holiday that has anything to do with God that would not have tremendous issues. We cannot look to the world for anything regarding Truth.

There is no sin to dismiss holidays any more than there is to take part in one, so long as we do not bind on people that they should celebrate the holiday as a law or that we make any holiday a holy day such as the Lord's day. I speak of holidays that do not have part in sin, such as idol worship holidays in Japan.

Marianinark,

I don't "celebrate" the man-made holiday known as Christmas. There are two ways to look at this holiday (just as there is two ways to look at the man-made holiday known as Easter...at least Easter in the today sense). You can look at it as religiously or non-religiously. If one wishes to look at the relgious side, then it is up to us to let them know why we don't and really can't look at it that way, but we can look at it as nothing to do with Christ or the birth of Christ and I do just that.

I have done extensive studies on holidays and the COMPLETE origin because I have so many asking me if Christians can recognize things such as birthdays and/or holidays.

As for the government...they have made every holiday for profit. So what the real and bottom line question is this: Is it scriptual to create and/or recognize a so-called religious holiday and be okay in God's sight? And it can be a simple yes or no...but with the answer, we must be ready to prove why or why not.

I will be back later with an article on the subject...

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

WHAT ???? I hope you explain what you are so angry about ! I have reread what I posted to Laura, and do not see what you are referring to ! I am shocked and amazed that you have attacked me in such a manner !

If Laura thinks I have been 'accusatory' towards her, I hope she will tell me so, and explain in what way ???

Please, please, Robert Lukenbill, please explain to me where I have been all of the things that you have accused me of . If you honestly think I am guilty of all that I will promise not to post here anymore.

What a shocking post to wake up to !!!!

Okay, I just reread Laura's post to me from 8.10 yesterday morning. I guess you all think I am rude and contentious. I am sorry. Speaking by way of a keyboard is not like speaking face to face,. You have pegged me in a way that is much too hurtful....
Those who know me, know that I may be firm in my faith, but I surely hope they do not think I am a nasty old lady ! If they do, they certainly do not show it when me meet together.
I am very sad at the turn of events here.

You are absolutely right. I run another forum for Bible school teachers and have posted there something on a study about how badly people misunderstand each other in electronic communications. It was pretty eye-opening for me, and I try to keep that in the back of my mind.

And I don't think you're a "nasty old lady"! :raped: You remind me of my grandma, whom I sorely miss -- smart, studious, and feisty. (Grandma once killed a snake by beating it with her walking stick!!! Now I got a smile on my face. She was one awesome lady.) Of course, you are *much* younger than Grandma would be if she were alive today.

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Marian,

While I am no fan of the whole "Happy Birthday Jesus" approach to the holiday in question, I'll tell what I am a fan of....

I love that there is a time of year that my whole extended family has off work or school at the same time so that we can plan get-togethers. If I did not observe this time, I would never see many of them again.

I love that there is a time of year that there is lots of neat food and treats set out at every house I visit ... and all the wonderful smells ...

It's thrilling to be able to buy my wife and kids something they "just want" but have done without due to other priorities. I'm glad there is a time of year the stores compete fiercely for my business so I can make that happen.

It's wonderful and comforting that there is a time the teenagers can take a pause from trying to become adults and enjoy being a kid for a few days.

I love the special lighting and decorations to signal this time - that signal all of the great things we are about to celebrate ... and that is a loving tight knit family. That's all these things are, a signal to slow down and enjoy life for a few days.

The original meanings behind these traditions are lost to the masses - It's just not what they are about anymore. In fact, as already mentioned in some fashion before, all of these things that are enjoyable about the holiday season are built and perpetuated by folks that care nothing about religion. The biggest proof of this in my mind is the elaborate decorations in some yards that include a Santa and a nativity scene in the same setting. I really get a kick out of that.

I have been in conservative congregations since the 70's and I have never been shown a Biblical reason not to celebrate in the way I describe above. While I can't say it's lead to a new conversion for me, it has given me an opening to discuss Jesus at least once every year in a context where the listener is not trying to get me to shut up so they can get away.

my $.02
...b

__________________
Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

I would like to offer a few thoughts on this topic.

My family and I celebrate Christmas but do so as a secular holiday. We do not do anything with christian symbols such as angels, mangers, Jesus, crosses, etc. Nor do we carol "religious songs".

We have Santa Clause, a Christmas tree, rudolf, Bing Crosby singing White Christmas and give and receive presents. Our children have been taught that the Bible does not authorize the celebrating of Jesus' birthday as a holiday and we have taken great care for them to know that attempts to place "Christ" in Christmas are of a denominational nature and not supported with scripture.

As a side note, we do the same thing for Easter at our home. It is time for the Easter Bunny. We teach our children that the first century Church knew nothing of these holidays and that we are not to bring Christ into them.

As for Halloween, we do not allow Ghosts, demons, withches and the like.

I also preach from the pulpit that "religious holidays" are of a man made origin and associating them with Christ should be avoided. Our congregation does not put up a tree, lights or things of that nature. We do not have Easter egg hunts in the parking lot nor do we host a haunted house.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

I am sorry that I have offended my brethren with my views on this subject. Although I am concerned about what God's view is on it, I should not have aired my views on this forum. As I said before, I realize I am in the minority on this, so I must realize I may be in the wrong to feel as I do.
Forgive me for giving anyone the idea that I was condemning them for their freedom in Christ.

Marian

Perhaps you and I are more alike than we know. I too have "trouble" with members of the Lord's Church bring Christmas into the Lord's Church and especially into the worship of the Church. I was at a congregation that wanted to put a Christmas Tree up and I asked them to show me the authority from the word of God for it. One of the ladies got a Bible and took me the Luke chapter 2 and said it's right there. My response to her was that it shows us the birth of Christ not the calling to observe a religious holiday. Her poor exegesis is what lead to her poor theology.

Many in the Lord's Church want to bring Christmas in as a "special day". They take their youth groups caroling at nursing homes, they have "Christmas parties" at the building, they gather on the 24 at midnight to "celebrate" what they should be celebrating all year long. The same thing happens with Thanksgiving. I had to correct a member who lead the prayer during the Lord's Supper and said "As we Pause this week to celebrate Thanksgiving, we do so knowing that death of Jesus is why we give thanks." After I passed out and was revived by EMS , I had to explain to him that Thanksgiving has nothing to do with the Lord's Supper .

I celebrate lots of holidays, forth of July, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc... but they are NOT religious holidays and I (we, my family) refuse all suggestions or associations with them as being "religious". I once had to tell a teacher that she was wrong for teaching the "story of the Candie Cane" in Children's Bible class. The thought that a piece of candy has anything to do with Christs blood is simply nonsense. I can assure you, as a preacher in the Lord's Church, that much more teaching needs to be had on this issue.

I have no problem with a Holiday just as I don't with a piano- as long as BOTH of them are not seen in the Lord's Church

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Okay...here is that article...may it help all who read it.


Is it scriptural and right to celebrate Christmas as a religious holy day? It is an obvious fact that most religious people believe that it is. In fact, many religious organizations stage grand productions and arrange elaborate displays for the purpose of commemorating the birth of Christ. Many of these exhibitions attract much attention, huge crowds and even new members for the performing church. Children and parents love the church sponsored nativity scenes, light shows and festivities, which has caused these productions to increase dramatically in size, splendor and number.

However, regardless of how impressive these presentations may be and how very "religious" the sponsors may appear, there is a larger question for people to consider: Did God ordain the celebration of Christ's birthday as a religious observance? All who are interested in "speaking as the oracles of God" and speaking "according to" God's word will turn to the scriptures for the answer to this question (1 Peter 4:11; Isaiah 8:20). All who are interested in acting in accordance with the authority of Christ will turn to the "word of Christ" for their authority for "whatever" they do in religion, "whether in word or in deed" (Colossians 3:16-17).

Non-religious Observance of Christmas. Before considering the religious observance of Christmas, I wish to make a couple of observations regarding its non-religious observance. There is a huge difference between a national "holiday" and a religious "holy day!" Human authorities are divinely permitted to establish holidays to honor special people and events. No sin is committed when stores, factories and businesses close in honor of those holidays. National holidays actually establish some useful standards allowing families and friends to visit each other in such a way that they may not otherwise be allowed to do. According to Romans 14:5, Christians have the God-given right to "esteem one day above another," thus observing a holiday or holiday(s) of their choosing. No sin is committed by such action unless the Christian binds his views and practices upon others (Rom. 14:10,13). As with other national holidays, Christians may rightly use the December 25th holiday for the purpose of gathering with loved ones for whatever lawful reasons they may choose. This may even include the exchanging of gifts, which incidentally, may be done on any occasion.

However, no human authority, whether church or state, has any right to establish religious holy days! This includes the establishment of December 25th as the "birthday of Christ" and using that day to commemorate the birth of Christ. Furthermore, no church has the scriptural right to incorporate the observance of Christmas as a religious and spiritual act. The New Testament authorizes no such practice. To presumptuously concoct and observe such manmade holy days is to sin against God.

The History of Christmas. The word "Christmas" comes from the Old English term Cristes maesse, meaning "Christ's mass." This expression was used to describe the worship service that was held on December 25 to commemorate Christ's birth. A Roman almanac shows Christmas first being observed on December 25th of 336 AD. This date was established in part, to compete with the pagan observance of "Saturnalia" which took place on December 17th. Also, an agreement was reached between the Western Catholic, Eastern Rite and Orthodox churches, which connected December 25th to January 6th ("Epiphany" - the appearing of Jesus), resulting in what is now known as "the twelve days of Christmas." This tradition of Christmas spread rapidly and is now recognized by most countries throughout the world.

Those who wholly associate Christmas with Christ are badly mistaken. Christmas is the result of a compilation of several different religious beliefs and cultural practices. For example, some may think gift giving has always been patterned after the practice of the wise men in Matthew 2:11. However, this is not true. Early Christians had no such custom. It was actually the Roman pagan celebration of Saturnalia that inspired this practice. Interestingly, these pagans also originated the custom of decorating houses with greenery and lights. Scandanavian and Teutonic peoples of Northern Europe decorated trees and barns in order to scare away demons.

Among other items, certain plants have become religiously associated with Christmas. Holly is used because its prickly leaves represent the crown of thorns worn by Jesus at the crucifixion, and its red berries are said to represent droplets of the Lord's blood. Poinsettia plants are based upon a Mexican legend of a child who wanted to bring a gift to the village's manger scene, but he was too poor to buy one. Legend has it that these plants first grew miraculously for him and their leaves were said to resemble the star of Bethlehem.

I observe these things, not to suggest that it is sinful to exchange gifts, string lights on your house, buy poinsettias or hang decorations on a cedar tree, but to point out that the observance of Christmas did not originate with God and is not taught in the Bible. This means that though one may celebrate Christmas day as he would Independence Day, or some other national holiday, he is not authorized to celebrate Christmas as a religious holy day.

Who Authorizes Religious Observance? No man, woman, pope, church, synod, convention or eldership has the right to establish religious holy days and authorize their special observance. This is solely the work of God. He alone is qualified to authorize certain things to be done on certain days (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). When first century Galatian Christians began to depart from divine legislation and institute their own "holy" days, they were met with the apostle's sharp reprimand. Galatians 4:10-11 says,

"You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain" (NKJV).

Why was Paul "afraid for" these Galatian saints? It was because they were making their appeal to an obsolete standard of religious authority. According to Hebrews 8:13, the arrival and ratification of the "New Covenant" rendered the Old Covenant "obsolete." Thus, New Testament Christians are not authorized to practice Old Testament law. Doing so would cause them to "fall from grace" (Galatians 5:4). The Old Law was a "tutor to bring [men] to Christ, that they might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:24-25). The key word in this passage is Christ. He has all authority and He is our authority in all matters "that pertain to life and godliness" (Matt. 28:18; Col. 3:17; 2 Pet. 1:3). Salvation is in His name (Acts 4:12).

But it may be argued that men do not appeal to the Old Testament for authority for the religious observance of Christmas, so how do the above principles apply? Perhaps another passage will help us to properly categorize these practices. To the saints at Rome, Paul acknowledged the zeal of his Jewish brethren, yet he said this zeal was "not according to knowledge" (Romans 10:2). The next two verses explain their failure. Paul said, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:3-4, NKJV).

Notice how the principle of Christ's universal authority extends itself in all directions and over all religious exercises. Christ's righteous standard is "revealed in the Gospel" (Rom. 1:16-17). By turning elsewhere for religious authority men reject this standard and are said to "establish their own righteousness." In effect, they establish their own religion in the process! They substitute their own standards and institutions in lieu of those established by Christ.

Christmas: A "Religious" Institution? We shall now make the application of the above principles. Where did either Christ, His chosen apostles, or His inspired spokesmen and writers ever instruct men to observe Christmas? Where in the Bible, can one read about the establishment of "Christmas?" Where, in Holy Writ, can one read of early Christians commemorating and celebrating the birth of Christ? References to the birth of Jesus are certainly found, but where do we read of saints observing that day as a holy day? And in the absence of this scriptural authority, upon what basis do men arbitrarily establish a day of the year as the "birthday of Christ," then proceed to honor that day as such? Furthermore, if authority for the religious observance of Christmas were to be found, where is divine authority explaining and demonstrating how this day is to be commemorated and celebrated? So far, in my personal experiences in discussing this question with people, I have never heard any of these questions answered with scripture.

The Truth About Christ's Beginning. The Bible does not de-emphasize Christ's birth, but neither does it attach a deep religious significance to that day. Why is the Bible silent about when Jesus was born? After all, exact dates are given for many other things! Why does the Bible say nothing about the need for Christians to remember and honor the day of Christ's birth? Had God chosen to, He could have told us to remember Christ's birth just as easily as He told us to "remember" His death. I would propose two possible explanations for God not authorizing us to commemorate Christ's birth.

1. God wanted mankind to emphasize, commemorate and honor Christ's death, rather than His birth (Matt. 26:26-29; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 11:23-29). It was through His death that Jesus would "draw all men to Him" (Jn. 12:32). It was through His death that Jesus offered redemption (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 1:7). And it was His death that provided the avenue of man's reconciliation with God (Rom. 5:6,8,10; 2 Cor. 5:14-21).

2. Christ's physical birth did not mark His beginning. In the case of ordinary humans, God forms their spirit with the formation of their body (Zech. 12:1). This was not the case with Jesus. His spirit preexisted His body. He was "in the beginning with God" (Jn. 1:1-3). Though the baptizer was older than Christ in physical age, yet Jesus preexisted John, and was eternally older than John (Jn. 1:30). The same was true of Abraham. Though Abraham lived 2000 years before Christ, Jesus preexisted Abraham by eternity (Jn. 8:58).

There was a priest/king named Melchizedek who lived in days of Abraham. The Hebrew writer compared him to the Son of God by saying he "had neither beginning of days, nor yet end of years" (Heb. 7:3). You see friend, Jesus has always existed and is always the same (Heb. 13:8). His physical birth did not bring Him into existence; it merely provided shape to His preexistent and intrinsic form. That birth gave Jesus the likeness and appearance of a man (Phil. 2:6-8). Though the Bible does call it a "birth," yet that birth was so very different from normal human births that it stands in its own separate classification: the class of incarnation! God became enveloped in flesh (Jn. 1:14; Matt. 1:18-23). Birthdays celebrate one's beginning: Christ had no beginning. By focusing upon Christ's alleged "birthday," as religious Christmas observers do, they detract from Christ's deity and exalt His transient physical nature. They ignore what the Bible teaches about Christ's real purpose for coming to the earth.

Conclusion: Those who celebrate December 25th, as a religious holy day must admit that they have absolutely no biblical authority for doing so! Many will say, "Well, He had to be born on some day - we just pick December 25th as that day!" Beyond being admittedly presumptive, this claim really misses the point. We are not concerned over people believing that Jesus was born on some day: We are concerned that religious people have established that day as a religious holy day, and proceed to religiously celebrate that day without God's approval! This should raise some eyebrows, but I am afraid too many people have wandered too far from the scriptures to even be concerned about this at all. The important question is not what everyone else thinks and is doing, but what am I doing? What about you, dear reader? Are you participating in an unauthorized religious practice?

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Dwayne, excellent article!

__________________
--Laura

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Jeremiah 10:23 (NKJV)

Brother D ...

Do you mind my republishing your post on my church's site? This is work worthy of not getting buried in a discussion forum.

...b

__________________
Butch Adams
Blue Ridge, VA
http://daleridgechurchofchrist.net
http://mydailypause.org

Be my guest!!

__________________
Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

Dwayne,

I would also like to re-publish this article for our congregation also. I will give credit to you for a job well done.

In Him
Bill

__________________
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)