There are 3 parts of this lesson to look at.
1. Bush - represents people of God to whom Moses was being sent. Ps.1:3
2. Fire - represents tribulations, persecution of the Egyptians.
3. God's Voice - was coming from within the bush.

Moses was attracted to the bush, not because it was burning but because it wasn't disintegrating. The reason was because God was within it. God's people though persecuted by Pharaoh were not disintegrating because God was with them.

Lesson for us today, when God is within us, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing to fear, God is within us and will deliver us as He did back then. Though the outer man decays, the inner man is being renewed day by day.

My neighbor who does not have Christ as his Lord is decaying inside and out, so what am I doing about it, as God sent Moses, God sends us, Mt.28:18-20

RJ

God was not within the bush, it was an angel.
“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed” (Ex.3:2).

Would you care to start all over?

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

I see nothing in the bible that would even hint that what you have concluded in this lesson parallels to this event.

It is a bit of a stretch. There are so many great and wonderful lessons of the bible, why dive into our own minds to stretch a truth that is not there and God's lessons are so much greater than anything we can make up, even if it does make us feel warm and fuzzy inside.

We have to beware of such liberality with God's Word, it can lead down a dark path if we are not careful. It might start off as a supposed innocent story but as you see with Lucado, it can eventually lead into a direction that leads one astray.

Wow - you guys!

This is not God in the bush? The Angel of the Lord is not God and yet the angel of the Lord
receives worship from men and we know no angel can or would do that, Rev.22:8,9;
Who did Jacob wrestle with and declare I have seen God face to face Gen.32:30;
Everywhere else we see the Angel of the Lord and you have people worshiping Him.

Because somebody has not put this together, that the bush is symbolic of the people as we
see in Ps.1:1-3; Fire we know is symbolic of persecution 1Cor.3:13; And the voice of God
oh that's right its not the voice of God.

Here we have Moses being sent back into Egypt to save God's people, the bush which does
not disintigrate though on fire (Pharaohs attempt to kill the children of Israel) this is what
attracts Moses and to hear God's voice from within, for we know if it wasn't for God Pharaoh
would be successful in his attempts, but God preserves His people.

And now we take that physical lesson and turn it into a spiritual lesson as we are instructed
by Paul to do - Ro.15:4; 1Cor.10:11; Learn the lesson from the OT, so you don't repeat it
today. Call it a stretch, I disagree, the book of Exodus is one of the greatest lessons
pointing to Christ, in every one of the ten plagues we see the miracles of Christ, in the Red
Sea we see a form of Baptism and in the tabernacle a reflection of the church.

Wow you guys.

RJ Mac

“No man hath seen God at any time…” (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). How do you explain your (Genesis 32:30) reference where their will be no conflict in scriptures.

And I noticed that you referenced the “angel of the Lord” as “Angel of the Lord” meaning angel of deity. (Or was this a typing mistake?)

Submitted in kindness,

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

So RJ, are you saying that God is an angel?

How can the Angel of the Lord be the Lord?

Is that what you are saying here?

Please go back and look at all the times such similar things happen, including the donkey speaking to the prophet.

God speaks, yes, but it is not truly His audible voice or physical presence in Glory since we would all die if He did.

Jesus said no man has seen God except Him.

Either you are mistaken or you need to study this further. Please listen to the brethren here trying to help you see something, it will help your understanding. If they did not use scriptures, you should not listen to them but since they have relevant points with scriptures, please do not be quick to say "wow" and dismiss but be wise and compare it to the scriptures.

I have learned things I was mistaken myself from these very brethren. They are wise onto salvation and the scriptures...

The Angel of the Lord: my how many people speak to God and are fearful they will die because they say
they have seen the Lord face to face. Gen.16:7-13, Hagar; Gen.32:30 Jacob; Jud.13:21,22 Samsons parents.
God visits Abraham and eats dinner with him in Gen.18:1ff; Ex.3:5,6; God Himself speaks from the
burning bush, and is identified as the Angel of the Lord. Pillar of cloud Ex.23:20-23;33:7-16; 40:34-38;
In the furnace of fire - Dan.3:28; lions den 6:22;
Who did Adam and Eve hide from in Gen.3: when they heard God walking?

So who is it if not God? Is it an angel? The word for angel means messenger, and Jesus is the Word of God
could this be Christ, since He is the physical manifestation of God for men to see, and it is not really the
Angel of the Lord as it is the Messenger of the Lord. I am not saying God is an angel but I am saying
that this Angel is God, and do we possibly mis-understand what the text is saying.

In Gen.18 God, YAWEH personally visits Abraham, eating and drinking with him and then allowing
Abraham to plead for those in Sodom and Gomorrah. Who is this if men cannot see God and live?
This is a physical representation of God, for God is Spirit, God doesn't look like men but can He not
appear as such? What do you say to Jn.1:18 in light of all we have just looked at? And then what about
Thomas who says, "My Lord and my God!" Did not Thomas see God/Christ Jesus?

Is the Angel of the Lord, the physical manifestation of God, the Christ, the Messenger, the Message.
Then they are truly seeing a form of God, but they are not actually seeing God. It is through Christ
that God deals with men because we cannot see God and live. Heb.1:1-3

When it comes to the burning bush is this not who Jesus is saying that He is the I Am, and that is
why the Jews pick up stones to kill Him because He is claiming to be God from the burning bush, whom
we know is The Angel of the Lord. Jn.8:58,59;

RJ Mac

I reviewed your verses. I do believe that the Old Testament had pre-incarnate appearances of the Messiah. But no man has seen God in all His glory face to face and lived. Moses asked if he could and the LORD answered, “I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee... Thou canst not see my face: for there shall NO MAN SEE ME, AND LIVE. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt SEE MY BACK PARTS: BUT MY FACE SHALL NOT BE SEEN.” (Ex. 33:19-23).

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). When the “Word became flesh and dwelt among us…” (John 1:14) our Messiah “who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross” (Phil. 2:6-8). Hagar saw the angel of the Lord in man form. Jacob wrestled with a man form. Abraham entertained a man form. Samson’s parents saw the angel of the Lord in man form. The angel of the Lord at the burning bush spoke in man form.

To my knowledge I know of no example in the Bible were man has seen God in all His glory like one of our “good ole buddies.” Forms and glimpses yes, but not God, Himself. This will not happen until judgment day “…when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (1 John 3:2).

Humbly submitted,

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BVidlar

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him” (Psalm 8:4)?

Agreed.

I think we need to stay on this topic and not get too far off of it.

RJ, brother Vidlar's verse needs to be addressed in light of the verses I gave earlier.

I do not dispute with the verses you bring up. I am going with what we KNOW as a WHOLE from the scriptures. We cannot push our thoughts into the verses but let the verses speak to us.

There are certain facts we know and lets stay in those. I would like us to do some homework.

1. Lets begin to list all the times God interacted with man.

2. Lets list all the relating scriptures.

RJ, the verses you speak of are not in dispute. What is in dispute is the way you portray the verses in that we HAVE to take those verses and combine the verses about no man seeing God by God and Jesus.

Lets not get off base and say angels are God or God is an angel, or Jesus is an angel or vice versa.

By looking at what we list, it can give us a picture. God's Word is not hard to understand, if we do not wish to resist it or displace it with our own ideas.

I look forward to your response and list of scriptures addressing 1&2.

Yes!! Let's stay within the boundries of these requests and with the scriptures as written and not interject opinions and personal interpretations.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

BVidlar: I agree whole heartedly with your last post and I don't believe anyone has seen God face to face.
I believe as you stated in the pre-incarnate appearances of the Messiah in a form in which He could
communicate with men. Whether it be as the Messenger of God, a pillar of fire or a burning bush, the
Messiah worked and communicated with men.

I found another interesting verse to think about concerning the Angel of the Lord and that is Mal.3:1;
"... And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple and the Messenger (Angel) of the
covenant in whom you delight, behold He is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.
The same word for angel is used but translated Messenger in relation to the coming Messiah.

Question is, could not Messenger be used in place of angel in all those other references, eliminating
the confusion, blending this prophecy with those events to show that Jesus is the Messenger, now in
the form of a man. No man has seen God, but they have seen His likeness, Heb.1:3;

I never said that men had seen God, I only said that it was God speaking from the burning bush.

RJ Mac

Steven ; sounds like a plan.

1. Gen.3:8-12 The LORD God began by interacting with man in the garden of Eden, where He walked and
talked with man. God was in a form such that Adam and Eve hid from Him when they heard Him coming.

2. Gen.4:1-15 - vs.16 Cain went out from the presence of the Lord.
So was the LORD visible or was He only a voice at this time? Heb.11:4;

RJ Mac

1. Lets begin to list all the times God interacted with man.
2. Lets list all the relating scriptures.

RJ,
This is the best post you have made thus far. I am not talking about being in agreement or not, but instead, speaking with clarity and respect for the scriptures. Good Job!

Good job considering all the verses and THEN attempting to draw conclusions. This kind of walking in the light, by the light, keeps us from stumbling.

Please look into the list of scriptures as suggested and then we can let them do the talking. There is study I read once and will try to post it for us to refer on this very topic.

In addition I must add that we need to think about this, why would God send Himself to be the messenger so it must be either a man (prophet/preacher), an angel (also a spiritual messenger), Jesus (God, who became flesh and was The Messenger). Truly we will never know all of these answers but we can rule out some of them most of the time by staying in the scriptures and taking in the whole counsel of God.

I thought I would start the list with some verses about seeing God:

John 5:36-38 (this could be a statment to the individuals or for all mankind..lets look further into verses)
36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

John 14:9 (See the personality and ways of God, the Father and Son in One)
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Jesus also clarifies in this statment:

John 1:18 (Only Jesus has seen Him in Glory)
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 17:5 (Jesus has been with the Father, God, in His full Glory in Spirit.)
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The angle of the Lord that is within the burning bush is representing God and speaking in God's name. In other words, God is in total control and pulling the strings, so to speak.
God is speaking through the angle in my opinion.

We do not need to be changing how scripture is worded, it was done that way for a reason. Everything must be kept in context.

1 Cor. 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"
Gen 3:10 And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."
Gen 3:11 He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate."

There is nothing here that tells us that Adam and Eve actually saw God face to face. "And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking..." is different from seeing God. Being in God's presence is not necessarily the same as seeing God, but rather God seeing us.

The same would be applied to Cain. We can speculate all day long as to what form God was when He was talking to Cain... be it an angel of the Lord, a ray of light, a voice in the air, etc., etc., but we cannot know by faith that exactly what form God was in either situation. What we do know is it was not God in His true form.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Bill: are you proposing that the English translations are without error?
All I am saying is that the very same word is translated two ways when
they are relating to the same person.

RJ Mac

I will go into a word study on the word Angel and messenger soon. For the moment, please notice that in Revelation how the angel said they are but fellow servants and should not be worshiped. We need to look into the different names used in the actual Greek and Hebrew.

You guys can dive into it but I will have to post it later when I have had time to give it the due respect in study.

I am not stating that the English translations are without error. All I am stating is that everything MUST be kept in CONTEXT. The Greek has different inflections with words much like Spanish does so it matters what the context is trying to relay. Our English languaage has many words that are spelled the same but have completely different meanings. I do not know enough Greek to try and translate, just enough to know that not all the words mean the same thing although they may be similar.

I will defer to Steven and his word study to prove my point!!

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Here is a quick way to do a word study on angel and messenger for yourself. if you have a
concordance. Look up angel and note the number beside it which is 4397 in the OT and note
the number of times it is translated angel. Now turn to messenger(s) and note the number beside
it 4397 and the number of times it is translated. So we can see it is up to the translators to decide
if the word is to be messenger of angel. They choose messenger in Mal.3:1 because they believed it
to be referring to Christ and know He is not an angel. My proposal is where we see the Angel of the Lord
whom we know accepts worship and speaks the voice of God, all I'm saying is replace angel there with
Messenger, which is exactly what Christ is, He only spoke what God gave Him to speak. He is the Word,
He is the Message, He is the messenger of God, which is why Moses said he spoke to God in the
burning bush, though he records it to be the Angel of the Lord.

RJ Mac

You cannot use this as a blanket way of studying. We already know this. We have to look at why the word is selected in each context and relating to the words around it.

We cannot impose our feelings or suspect thoughts onto the scriptures.

So every time an angel spoke to anyone in the bible, it was Jesus? Was Jesus comforted by copies of Himself in the desert after fasting and being tempted by satan?

This is making big assumptions. I have been busy and will get into the word study more soon.

Steven why do you blow my statement out of proportion. Did I say every time
the word angel is used to translate it messenger. I only said maybe we should
examine the use of the word in light of when we see the Angel of the Lord, because
when that phrase is used, that person is worshiped.

RJ Mac

Okay, RJ, that sounds good. I am glad it was out of proportion since that has been the way you have been teaching the scriptures so to see you use some measure of caution is refreshing.

Keep that line tight and we can study anything but a loose tangle of fishing line will lead to confusion and misunderstanding.

What is being discussed here is what we call a Theophany. Put simply, a theophany is the presence of God manifested in a way in which man can see and interact with him. A good example of this would be Genesis 18:1-2

Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw {them,} he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,

Here we have God appearing to man in a form that man can interact with. And WOW- he appears as three men!

The same thing is seen when Jacob wrestles with "God" in Gen. 32:30

"So Jacob named the place Peniel, for {he said,} "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

But scripture teaches us that it was an angel that he wrestled with: Hosea 12:4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us,

So.... how are these texts reconciled? Simple. God in various ways and at many different times appeared to man in a form in which man could see, touch and interact with physically. Put simply- a theophany.

So the scripture is true and just when it says "no man has ever seen God.... John 1:18"

Kindly offered,
Don

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org