Do you believe that God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Dear Brother Sonnie,

With respect to your note:

Yes, I believe this. He ordained and/permits all things. This is my answer.

The rest are just some Scripture passages for study. Your comments would of course be appreciated:

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD of host has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?

Jer 31:3
The LORD appeared to him from afar, {saying,} "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they {began} rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Rom 9:11 - 26
for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."


Rom 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

Eph 1:4 – 12
… Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is,} the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Phil 2:12 & 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.

2 Thess 2:13 & 14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

1 Pet 1:1 & 2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


Felix

If you take those passages out of context, I can see how you can be wrestling with the truth of God's Word. It's typical for this to occur when someone looks for passages to support their false doctrines.

Let's clear this up though and see just how silly your false doctrine is.

Does God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?

We should consider this false doctrine very close, because if indeed this false doctrine were somehow true, as I made reference to earlier, there is no doubt that it would be unnecessary to spend our time or labor to encourage the sinner to repent of his ways and turn to God. It would be fruitless to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19ff), because it would not matter… God has unchangeably fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass. We could actually ignore the commands of Jesus.

Actually, I think it would be impossible for man to err because whatever he does is compelled by God’s fore-ordination and therefore cannot be wrong. If God has ordained everything, then anything we do, good or bad, is ordained by God.

Think about it…

If it comes to pass that a man lies, God not only ordained it, but he unchangeably ordained it.

If it comes to pass that a man steals, God unchangeably ordained it as well.

What if a man kills his neighbor, well… God unchangeably ordained it.

Despite the fact that God does not tempt anyone...

James 1:13, 14 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.


Let’s consider for a moment the story of Cain…

Genesis 4:8-11 Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know; am I my brother's keeper?" And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.”

It came to pass that Cain killed his brother Abel and as we can read, God placed a curse on Cain for killing his brother. Why did God curse Cain? Was it not by the most wise and holy counsel of God’s will and did God not freely and unchangeably ordain that Cain should do the very thing that God cursed him for?

How does God deal with what He commanded in Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.” Yet, Cain murdered and it was by God’s will according to those who believe the false doctrine of predestination.

God further commanded…

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.”
Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal.”
Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

God has clearly forbidden things which actually do come to pass. How can it be that He has unchangeably ordained them? Considering the divine character of God, how is it that He would unchangeably ordain something to come to pass and at the same time forbid it? Then He threatens the guilty with everlasting punishment?

Psalms 145:9 “The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.”

Psalms 145:17 “The LORD is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.”

Despite God is “good to all”, that “his mercy is over all he has made” and He is “righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works”, according to this false doctrine, those that do what He has unchangeably ordained for them to do will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. How can any sane individual possibly believe this?

If God unchangeably ordained that a certain person on a certain day should do a certain thing, then that person has no power to resist doing that certain thing. If somehow that certain person were to avoid doing that certain thing, then that person would have changed God’s unchangeable decree. That person had more power to change God’s decree than God had to enforce it. Only the insane could believe such silliness.

Let’s not forget the false doctrine in question here… God has not only from all eternity ordained just some things… He has unchangeably ordained all things…. whatsoever comes to pass.

God has ordained that a person should not kill, yet people kill. He has ordained that a person should not steal or bear false witness, yet people steal and swear falsely every day.

God does not force anyone to keep his ordinances, but He will indeed punish them if they do not keep them.

Let’s consider what Paul wrote…

Romans 13:1,2 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

There is no authority except from God… the authority that does exist has been instituted by God. As we see, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed/ordained. But how can anyone successfully resists that which God has unchangeably ordained as this false doctrine would imply?

Let’s now consider Jonah chapter 3…

Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them. The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish." When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:1-10)

God told Jonah to say, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

This was a decree or ordinance of God, yet it did not come to pass. Note that “When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.”

What God ordained was in fact changeable… not unchangeable.

Consider 2 Kings 20…

“In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.'" (2 Kings 20:1)

It was ordained of God that Hezekiah would die… he would not recover from his sickness. Yet, what do we see happen?

Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, "Now, O LORD, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD, and I will add fifteen years to your life. (2 Kings 20:2-6a)

Hezekiah prayed and God heard his prayer. What God had previously ordained was changed and fifteen years added to Hezekiah’s life. What caused God to change His mind? Hezekiah’s prayer and tears! What God had ordained was in fact changeable.

There are many other examples throughout the Bible of things ordained of God being changeable… which would thwart any theory that everything that comes to pass is unchangeably ordained. It is impossible to harmonize such a theory with the Bible.


This false doctrine would have God grieving over His own foolishness. Is God really foolish? Consider the following…

Genesis 6:5,6 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

If God fore-ordained everything that comes to pass, He fore-ordained every thing the early people did… why then did He grieve over their wickedness when every act was of His own absolute and eternal ordinance? God would be grieving over His own folly.

Let’s consider the following to further see the silliness of this false doctrine…

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Jeremiah 19:4,5 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind--

If in fact God fore-ordained every thing that comes to pass, He fore-ordained these things we read of in Jeremiah because they came to pass. God said He did not command them, he did not decree them, nor did they come into His mind.

Please, anyone supporting this false doctrine, enlighten us all as to how God fore-ordained things which never entered His mind.

What sense could be made of the sin of Adam? God made him and placed him under law. It came to pass that Adam violated God’s law when he ate of the fruit that God commanded him not to eat. If God fore-ordained every thing that comes to pass, then He fore-ordained that Adam should eat the fruit, because it came to pass that Adam did in fact eat of the fruit. God and the law decreed that he should not eat, yet God ordained that he should eat. Either Adam eats and violates the law or he does not eat and changes the unchangeable decree of God. It is apparent to eat and violate the law was a necessity, yet God punished Adam for it.

If this false doctrine is true, then the entire theory of sin, accountability, rewards and punishment, which are all in harmony with God's justice and mercy… is totally and utterly incomprehensible. Clearly this false doctrine is at war with the Bible and is in fact proven to indeed be a false doctrine.

Felix, now that you know the truth, you should immediately do the works of God... believe, repent, confess and be baptized to wash away your sins... and remain faithful. If you need more help understanding this Felix, we will be glad to assist you, but please, no more babbling about false doctrines.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Dear Brother Sonnie,

Once again thank you for taking the time. I also thank God for permitting us to have the conversations that we have had so far. First, let me correct an unfortunate typographical error in my answer to your question.

I meant to say that God has ordained and/or permits all things.

I suspect that this is not going to change your obviously demonstrated strong objection to this “false doctrine” as you have called it. There is not much more that I could say at this point. It is not likely that we would resolve the obvious differences in our understanding of the matters raised. So let’s leave it there for now.

Nevertheless, we must remain thankful to God for His graciousness. He forgives the foolishness of us all, even the foolishness of not paying a closer attention to His word.

My prayer is that the Holy Spirit would continue to enlighten our minds to understand His word to the end that we would pay appropriate tribute to His ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY with reverent fear. That we may also worship Him with utmost gratitude for His grace – the unmerited favor – that He grants generally to His creation and particularly to His elect. He is God Almighty, holy and immutable. He reigns eternal. To Him be glory for ever. Amen!


May God bless and keep you my dear brother.
Sincerely,
Felix

Heehee... I attended a Presbyterian Church for about 11 years, very familiar with the false doctrines of Calvinism... the five points of Calvinism, all the predestination bologna, the Westminster Confession, etc.,etc. I finally figured out there was the Bible and that I no longer needed all those man-made doctrines... the truth will set you free...

I'll be posting some very thorough responses to Calvinism at some point in time. It's about as clear as it gets that it's at complete war with the Bible. Be sure to check in often and maybe you'll see the light one day.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Dear Brother Sonnie,

Again I thank you for your note promising to post responses to what you call the “false doctrines of Calvinism”.

I am looking forward to your postings. Since you have demonstrated a commitment to the Bible, I would particularly be interested in seeing how you explain these Bible passages:

1. John 1:12 & 13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

(…without the usual freewill insistence on verse 12 to the exclusion of verse 13; or without providing a new meaning to what verse 13 says altogether; or without placing the so called man’s part and God’s part on equal footing as though men and God have different but equally crucial parts to play in the matter of salvation; etc. )

2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)

3. Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”

(…without providing a new meaning to the Biblical understanding of “DEAD”)

4. 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(…without implying that Gods’ wish for “none” to perish can be undone by the simple exercise of a person’s independent wish)

There are more Bible passages of course and I have no doubt that you are going to provide some as well. Knowing that the Scriptures are in perfect unity and harmony, I would be very interested to see how you maintain this Scriptural harmony and unity in your postings.

Meanwhile, I remain thankful and I hope that you are likewise thankful to God for His redeeming, retaining, restraining, restoring, reassuring, refining and refreshing grace.

Your Brother in Christ,
Felix

I'll work on those for you when I get a chance... but they say what they say... and they certainly don't support the false doctrines of Calvinism. Most likely you are taking them out of context in order to help support your own opinions.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Dear Brother Sonnie,

I am waiting with great interest to see your postings.

Sincerely in the Lord,
Felix

Felix,

Greetings.

You said:
Again I thank you for your note promising to post responses to what you call the “false doctrines of Calvinism”.

I am looking forward to your postings. Since you have demonstrated a commitment to the Bible, I would particularly be interested in seeing how you explain these Bible passages:

1. John 1:12 & 13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

(…without the usual freewill insistence on verse 12 to the exclusion of verse 13; or without providing a new meaning to what verse 13 says altogether; or without placing the so called man’s part and God’s part on equal footing as though men and God have different but equally crucial parts to play in the matter of salvation; etc. )

ELDV: The first phrase says everything: "as many as received him". As many as received him were given the ability to be born of God, which is the new birth (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-7).

Felix:
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)

ELDV: God would draw all men to Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but men refuse him.

Felix:
3. Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”

(…without providing a new meaning to the Biblical understanding of “DEAD”)

ELDV: Absolutely (Romans 6:23). While we were in sin, we were as dead men walking.

Felix:
4. 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(…without implying that Gods’ wish for “none” to perish can be undone by the simple exercise of a person’s independent wish)

ELDV: You obviously see the problem with your own interpretation. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 both indicate God's desire is for "all" to be saved, and yet we know that all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Either we can dispense with the false assumption that God's sovereignty demands that God's wishes must come to pass, or we're left with a massive inconsistency.

This is a declarative statement that cannot be denied.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV

The Calvinistic God is a mess or a sadist; regardless, he is not the LORD of Hosts.

ELDV

__________________
Ethan R. Longhenry / deusvitae@hotmail.com
Evangelist, church of Christ in Norwalk, Ohio
Homepage

Amen Ethan... thank you for chiming in.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Felix, I am glad you are willing to discuss the Word of God.

I wanted to mention something I read in a previous post:

Sonnie asked you, "Do you believe that God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?"

You said, "Yes, I believe this."

You then said something different when you said, "He ordained and/permits all things. This is my answer."

Felix, there is a MAJOR difference between God ordaining something (issuing an order), and permitting something (allowing something to take place). There is a difference between:

a) God issuing an order for Cain to slay Abel, and
b) God permitting Cain to have the freedom of choice to do good or evil.

If you believe that God does not foreordain everything, but merely permits some things, then you yourself are in disagreement with the doctrine of Calvinism -- a doctrine that it seemed as if you were defending. It is redundant to say that God permits what He ordains, so for the sake of clarity, please answer this question with a simple yes or no answer:

Does God freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?

I have another question.. Does man have free will to do what he chooses? If not, how would true love be possible? Does not God want us to love Him? Is not love the greatest of all commandments that we are to obey? How can we truly love if we do not have free will? Can your computer love you? If you program it to audibly say "I love you" ten times a day, does that mean that your computer really loves you? Again, is it not an accurate statement to say that true love is impossible without free will?

In regards to your last post:
The "without" phrases that you gave after each of the above verses are obviously an attempt to disarm anyone who would disagree with Calvinistic doctrine. I am more concerned about closely examining these verses, the context of these verses, and rightly dividing the sum of God's Word than I am concerned about tip-toeing around your personal criteria for exegesis. Now, with that being said, let us notice these verses you mentioned in a loving, honest way:

John 1:12, 13 – "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).

Verse 12 clearly states that God gave those who receive Him the power to become the sons of God.

Verse 13 mentions being born of God, and the New Testament teaches us that the new birth happens when a person is baptized into Christ, being raised up to walk in new life (new birth): "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection" (Romans 6:3-5). Who is it that walks in newness of life, but someone who has just been born again? Who is it that walks in newness of life, but someone who has just entered into new life after baptism into Christ? Notice also the condition "if" in that last verse, which tells us that we must be planted together in the likeness of Christ's death (baptized into His death) to be in the likeness of His resurrection. The new birth is also described in Titus 3:5, in which it is called the "washing [baptism] of regeneration [new birth];" and in Ephesians 5:26 it is called the sanctification and cleansing of the "washing of water [baptism]," which we are repeatedly instructed to do by the Word.


John 6:44 – Why do you all never mention the following verse? =)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" (John 6:44, 45).

Felix, it seems that you have failed to examine the context of John 6:44, which tells us exactly how a person is drawn to Christ! The power to produce faith does not lie in a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the sinner (as Calvinism teaches), but rather the power is in the Word of God: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Paul said we are called to God by the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).

You said (…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)… Let it be known that I did not provide a new meaning; I merely closely examined the context, and rightly divided the Word. "The sum of [God's] word is truth," not just bits and pieces of it (Psalm 119:160).

Please continue to my next post...

Jason Hilburn

Ephesians 2:1 – All Christians were once dead in trespasses and sins, but the Bible does not teach that one has no part in changing his spiritual situation. You said not to redefine "dead." Obviously death in Ephesians 2:1 does not mean physical death. It means spiritual death, which is separation from God. This is the Biblical meaning of spiritual death, per verses such as Isaiah 59:1, 2. There is no spiritual life apart from God, and the lack of spiritual life equals spiritual death. Please notice the following in regards to how and when a person is made alive in Christ:

You yourself mentioned 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Notice he said if we are "in Christ," and Paul told us that we are not in Christ until we are "baptized into Christ"! Therefore it is unscriptural to teach that we are in God (saved) before baptism. There are only two places in the Bible which explicitly tell us how we get "into Christ," and they both say that we are "baptized into" Christ (Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3). I encourage you to do a search for the phrases "into Christ" and "into Jesus" throughout the New Testament, and I assure you that these will be the only two verses found.

Paul taught the same thing in all the churches (1 Cor. 4:17, 7:17). In 2 Cor. 5:17 Paul is using the same terminology of putting our old selves in the grave that he used in Colossians 2 when he was discussing baptism: "...putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:11-13).

Baptism is a burial (Colossians 2:12). If a person is alive in Christ immediately after the point of faith, are we burying people who are alive when we baptize them? Shouldn't we be burying dead people? The Bible teaches that before we are baptized we are dead, but after baptism we walk in new life (Romans 6:3-5). Paul said that when we are baptized into Christ we put our old man to death, and we are raised to walk in newness of life:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Paul used the same terminology in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "such were some of you, but ye are washed, ye are sanctified." Compare this with Titus 3:5 (washing [baptism] of regeneration [new birth]) and Ephesians 5:26 (sanctification and cleansing by "the washing of water"). I know commentators are not inspired by God, but I thought B. W. Johnson's note on Ephesians 5:26 was interesting when he wrote, "All commentators of repute in all bodies refer this to baptism."

The Bible teaches that we are not sanctified and cleansed until after baptism. The fact that we are not in Christ until after baptism kills the doctrine of Calvinism, because we chose to believe, repent, confess, and obey God before we were "in God"; before we were "sanctified" by Him; before we were "cleansed by Him"; before we became a new creature "in Christ", etc. So when someone tries to use Ephesians 2:1 to say that a dead person cannot do anything because he is dead, that is completely unscriptural, and is merely a tactic to make one disregard what the rest of the Bible says!

Paul said we are not free from sin until after we obey God: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:16-18). "That form of doctrine" he mentioned was being baptized into Christ, which is found earlier in the same chapter (Romans 6:3-5).

Peter said that our souls are not purified until we obey the truth. Notice in the following verse that we purify our souls by obeying the truth: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22). From this we learn that we have a part in purifying our souls, and that we are not purified until after obedience.

Peter said that baptism is for the remission of sins [which would equal purification of the sin-stained soul]: "be baptized...for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Peter also told them, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40). They did not have the power to save themselves without God's help, but they did have to choose to obey God's commands if they wanted to be saved (v38).

Also notice Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." God gave them a choice to make.

Joshua 24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15). God gave them a choice to make.

We are dead until we choose to be baptized to walk in newness of life. Later within the same context of Ephesians 2:1, Paul said, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6). Paul tells us in Romans how we are raised, and how we get "in Christ Jesus," and this is through baptism (see Romans 6:3-5 above). This is not a work of human righteousness (like saving a baby from a burning building), but rather a work of Godly righteousness (doing what God told us to do to be counted righteous). "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (1 John 3:7). "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34, 35).


2 Peter 3:9 – "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Felix, I do not understand why you mentioned this verse, because it totally contradicts what you teach! God wishes for all to come to repentance… Will all men come to repentance? All men will not come to repentance. God "…would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4 ASV). God desires for all men to be saved, but this is not going to happen! God would have all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, but this is not going to happen! Jesus said that a minority of people will go to Heaven – those who do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:13, 14, 21); so even though God would like all men to come to repentance, this will not happen because God loved us enough to give us free will!

Man has the power to do the will of God, and man has the power to refuse to do the will of God. Was it God's will for Cain to kill Abel? No! Was it God's will for homosexuality to run rampant in Sodom? No! Was it God's will for people to burn their babies in sacrifices to pagan gods during Old Testament times? No!

Calvinism's erroneous view of God would have us to believe that every single event that happens is because it was God's will for it to happen. Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:21 clearly implies that God's will is not always done: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). One might also wonder why Jesus taught His disciples to pray that the will of the Father would be done, if God's will is always done? That would be like Jesus telling us to pray that God will always be holy!

In the following verse, does the phrase "sin willfully" refer to the will of these Hebrews, or the will of God? "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Hebrews 10:26)? Obviously we have a will of our own. When we choose to do our selfish will rather than God's will, we sin.

Calvinism leads us to the conclusion that a man who raped a 10 year old girl did so because God made him do it. Then the man goes to jail all of his life because God made him rape the girl. Then God sends the man to Hell for something that God made him do in the first place! I'm sure Satan loves Calvinism, because it makes God look like an evil respecter of persons. While it is true that God has chosen men or nations to carry out His will, God has no respect for persons when it comes to salvation. He judges us in an impartial way, according to what we choose to do.

Do I believe in the Biblical doctrines of election and predestination? Of course! However, the Biblical doctrines of election and predestination are much different from Calvinism's teaching on these subjects. From God's Word we learn that God has elected to save all who "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); all who "choose" to serve the Lord (Joshua 25:14); all those who choose to obey Him (Hebrews 5:9). He has predestined a group to be saved, and that group is Christ's church (Ephesians 5:23). We are not predestined to be saved or condemned on an individual basis, because that would make God a respecter of persons! Christ's church is made up of people who loved God enough to obey Him and enter into His church. God is no respecter of persons, so He will not force anyone to enter Christ's church for salvation; neither will He keep anyone out of Christ's church who desires to enter the body in the Scriptural way. God has predetermined that He will save a certain group of people - those who will enter into Christ's church.. They are the elect because they chose to be of the elect.

Calvinism falls with these words: "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (1 Peter 1:16, 17).

"Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons" (Colossians 3:24, 25).

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:9-11).

Jason Hilburn

Okay... I'll just toss my reply in the garbage...


Excellent Brother Jason... excellent...

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

My Dear Brothers Ethan & Jason,

Thank you for your postings. There are so many things said in your postings that pose several questions. Perhaps going back to some basics is necessary.

Please pardon any errors- spellings, etc. -that you might find. I am willing to explain anything that is not clear to you. It goes to show that I certainly need God to take care of such a crucial matter as my ultimate salvation lest I ruin it due to my inexcusable yet inevitable human imperfections and inconsistencies.

You have demonstrated a passionate adherence to what you believe to be the truth. This is to be commended. Anyone who believes something ought to show this kind of passion regarding what is believed. Otherwise, it is not a true belief. This does not mean that what is believed is necessarily the truth. Countless people passionately believe fallacies. All of us, due to our imperfect and unreliable human wisdom, are prone to errors in our beliefs and the expression of these beliefs. This is precisely why we must acknowledge God’s unilateral and determinate help without which errors shall abound.

All beliefs must be checked against God’s infallible word. Thankfully, God has made His truth simple. It consists of elementary yet profound facts. Sadly, in our typical human fashion of espousing our beliefs with shifting points of focus, the facts often become obscured.

Some people think that these matters that we are now discussing are insignificant or irrelevant. Others give names to the different positions and conclude that they are mere controversies that should be avoided or ignored. In reality, these are crucial matters. They pertain to how we ultimately view and respond to God. He is our creator to whom we shall ultimately give account. These are matters pertaining to why we exist.

Although your position appears to be logical from the perspective of encouraging us to “win souls”, we exist for a more profound and eternal purpose than the temporal charge of Matthew 28:19 - “go ye into the world and make disciples”. This is important but it is not the primary purpose for our existence.

In fact, evidence in the church at large, irrespective of the denomination or creed, shows that even this temporal charge is being pursued with varied understanding and through methods that are froth with human pride and other vices. Many people have taken to a mechanical human way that says “just decide to believe” and you will be saved. This is driven by the misunderstanding that obtaining eternal salvation is discretional. At the other extreme, people simply conclude that since eternal salvation is totally the work God, they can sit back and do nothing. Thus the practical expression of their gratitude for God’s unmerited grace wanes.

In the process of examining the facts, we must also ask ourselves some personal yet crucial questions. Aside from what anybody else says, you must privately ask yourself as I must ask myself:

1. Am I truly sure (not deluded) that I am saved?
2. Am I absolutely sure (not deluded) that I am going to heaven?
3. Can I fully trust that my decision has done it?
4. Can I perfectly and independently maintain the requirements for my salvation?
5. If per chance I die suddenly due to an accident or otherwise after having committed a sin and had no prior chance to repent, can I be sure that shall be going to heaven?
6. With the demonstrated tenuousness of some of these questions, what can I say is the basis for any confidence that I can have concerning my salvation?

Here are some basic facts that are preventing me from adopting your position that my eternal salvation crucially depends on the exercise of my freewill:

1. Whether “saved” or “unsaved” the human will is remains corrupt with sin and worldliness unless God intervenes to direct it. The human will is irresolute and can only produce an irresolute salvation wherever it is independently exercised. It cannot produce any reliable salvation. Hence, claims of the human freewill position in the matter of eternal salvation also concede that salvation can be lost.

2. The behavior of people inside and outside the church indisputably demonstrates the fact that the human will is corrupt and irresolute. The Bible confirms this fact – Read through the entire Bible. You will see what I mean.

3. Only GOD is GOD and He is truly GOD.

4. GOD and only GOD is our saviour and our salvation wrought by God is absolutely resolute and reliable.

5. GOD graciously caters to the well-being of humans but He is not obligated to do so.

6. GOD and only GOD must be and will be worshiped.

7. GOD’s sovereignty is absolute. Else He is not GOD and must be subjugated under the rule or will of another.

8. GOD would not and does not share the worship due Him. This includes the fact that GOD would not and does not share the credit due Him.

9. To share in the credit that belongs to GOD is to share the worship that is due Him.

10. To say that I am my own saviour is to share in the credit that belongs to GOD.

11. If I say that my salvation depends on the exercise of my own freewill, then I am essentially saying that I am, to that extent, my own saviour.

12. Even the thought that the “freewill” is my own is insolent. For it was given to me by GOD. Then to extend the scope of this so called “freewill” to deciding ultimate matters is greater insolence and affront against God. All ultimate decisions with regards to all of GOD’s creation fall under the exclusive domain of GOD.

13. In whatever manner we make ourselves out to be our ultimate saviours, we make ourselves into being our own gods. The moment we do that we become blatantly guilty of the first commandment (Ex 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me). No amount of pretence or denial that we “have done no such thing” can absolve us of the guilt of such a grievous sin against GOD.

14. Our understanding of how we become saved determines to whom we attribute the credit and therefore to whom we direct our gratitude and worship. To attribute the credit or even the tiniest part of it to any one other than God is a grievous sin.

This is obviously a serious matter that can not be ignored while we zealously purse the “salvation of souls for the LORD” We must learn from the example of Uzzah – II Sam 6:6 & 7. The deception is very subtle in thinking that God cannot save us if we do not first allow Him by independently choosing to believe him. The subtlety of this deception does not negate the gravity of the sin that it draws us into.

The diminishing of God’s sovereignty and power because of any misinformed zeal to save souls is akin to Uzzah’s sin. Souls must be saved, will be saved, and are being saved according to God’s effectual will.

The thought that we can seat back and do nothing about our salvation is equally sinful. God grants us grace that is so great and unmerited. The least we can do is to respond with gratitude and obedience.

We must respond to God but it is not to secure our place in heaven. It is to glorify God. This is the purpose for which we were created. This is what we shall continue to do in heaven. We must also testify to the glory and grace of God on earth. This is primarily to glorify God. If souls turn to Christ because of our testimony, all the praise and credit must go to God for it is His doing. Let us not think that we are the saviours of the world and thereby worship ourselves. This is the aspiration of satan for which he is eternally doomed – Isaiah 14: 12 - 15.

God has given us a will and He also helps us to appropriately use it. Our will is by no means free. It must yield to God and it ultimately answers to Him. The argument about being robots is simply a ploy of the deceiver to evoke human-centered pride in us. Let us not fall for it: James 4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore {it} says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

*** Now, it is your turn. What is preventing you from adopting my position that your eternal salvation is completely the work of God? What are the sins that this position leads us into? ***


Your's in Christ,
Felix

Dear Brothers Ethan,

Regarding your postings as quoted below, please see my observations and comments:

With Reference to John 1:12 & 13: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

ELDV: The first phrase says everything: "as many as received him". As many as received him were given the ability to be born of God, which is the new birth (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-7).

Felix – This verse should be understood correctly in light of other Scriptures rather than from the perspective of the simple phraseology. It does not say “spiritually receiving” comes before “spiritual birth”. Many passages in the Bible present the reality that “spiritual birth” comes before a person can have the “spiritual vitality” to “spiritually receive or believe”.

In fact, God knows that men would think that they have something to do with their regeneration. Hence He gave us verse 13 to stress: “who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”? This emphasis clearly counters the notion that the “will of man” must be exercised before a person can be born of God (regeneration).

This John 1: 12 & 13 passage is in perfect harmony with Eph 2:1 – The spiritually dead must be spiritually awakened (made alive) by God before they can show any marks of spiritual vitality such as believing Christ.

The foregoing verses are also in perfect agreement with John 3: 5 -8- If a person’s regeneration is dependent on the exercise of the person’s free will, then verse 8 does not make sense. However, it makes sense because regeneration is wrought in us by God (the Holy Spirit). Regeneration like “the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”. Again this is in agreement with John 6:44. It is the Father who draws us into coming to Him, and with Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
As for your citing of John 3:5 & Romans 6 3-7 , these verses do not tell me that it is up to me to choose out of my own free will.

With reference to John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

ELDV: God would draw all men to Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but men refuse him.

Felix – Going by your comment I could say: “God is not the boss of me”. I can refuse to do what He wishes. On the other hand, I know that this would be a foolish (not a freewill) stance to take. If there is any consequence that I would suffer because I refuse Him, then “He is the boss of me” and I must do what he says. Lest I suffer the consequence. A truly “free” will must also be free of consequences for its choices or actions. Else it is not a “free” will.

With reference to Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”


ELDV: Absolutely (Romans 6:23). While we were in sin, we were as dead men walking.

Felix- I hardly see your commentary on Romans 6:23 as what the verse is saying. Romans 6:23 says: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free grace of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This verse clearly has more than the temporal life in view. It also says nothing about my free will.
Eph. 2:1, on the other hand, speaks of being spiritually dead. Traversing between the spiritual and physical death in the interpretation of the term “DEAD” in this passage only obscures the truth. The verse speaks of being spiritually dead. This means being spiritually unresponsive. It agrees perfectly with I-Cor 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” Simply put, a person who is spi