Do you believe that God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Dear Brother Sonnie,

With respect to your note:

Yes, I believe this. He ordained and/permits all things. This is my answer.

The rest are just some Scripture passages for study. Your comments would of course be appreciated:

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD of host has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?

Jer 31:3
The LORD appeared to him from afar, {saying,} "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they {began} rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Rom 9:11 - 26
for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."


Rom 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."

Eph 1:4 – 12
… Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is,} the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Phil 2:12 & 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.

2 Thess 2:13 & 14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

1 Pet 1:1 & 2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


Felix

If you take those passages out of context, I can see how you can be wrestling with the truth of God's Word. It's typical for this to occur when someone looks for passages to support their false doctrines.

Let's clear this up though and see just how silly your false doctrine is.

Does God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?

We should consider this false doctrine very close, because if indeed this false doctrine were somehow true, as I made reference to earlier, there is no doubt that it would be unnecessary to spend our time or labor to encourage the sinner to repent of his ways and turn to God. It would be fruitless to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19ff), because it would not matter… God has unchangeably fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass. We could actually ignore the commands of Jesus.

Actually, I think it would be impossible for man to err because whatever he does is compelled by God’s fore-ordination and therefore cannot be wrong. If God has ordained everything, then anything we do, good or bad, is ordained by God.

Think about it…

If it comes to pass that a man lies, God not only ordained it, but he unchangeably ordained it.

If it comes to pass that a man steals, God unchangeably ordained it as well.

What if a man kills his neighbor, well… God unchangeably ordained it.

Despite the fact that God does not tempt anyone...

James 1:13, 14 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.


Let’s consider for a moment the story of Cain…

Genesis 4:8-11 Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" He said, "I do not know; am I my brother's keeper?" And the LORD said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.”

It came to pass that Cain killed his brother Abel and as we can read, God placed a curse on Cain for killing his brother. Why did God curse Cain? Was it not by the most wise and holy counsel of God’s will and did God not freely and unchangeably ordain that Cain should do the very thing that God cursed him for?

How does God deal with what He commanded in Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.” Yet, Cain murdered and it was by God’s will according to those who believe the false doctrine of predestination.

God further commanded…

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.”
Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal.”
Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

God has clearly forbidden things which actually do come to pass. How can it be that He has unchangeably ordained them? Considering the divine character of God, how is it that He would unchangeably ordain something to come to pass and at the same time forbid it? Then He threatens the guilty with everlasting punishment?

Psalms 145:9 “The LORD is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.”

Psalms 145:17 “The LORD is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.”

Despite God is “good to all”, that “his mercy is over all he has made” and He is “righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works”, according to this false doctrine, those that do what He has unchangeably ordained for them to do will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction. How can any sane individual possibly believe this?

If God unchangeably ordained that a certain person on a certain day should do a certain thing, then that person has no power to resist doing that certain thing. If somehow that certain person were to avoid doing that certain thing, then that person would have changed God’s unchangeable decree. That person had more power to change God’s decree than God had to enforce it. Only the insane could believe such silliness.

Let’s not forget the false doctrine in question here… God has not only from all eternity ordained just some things… He has unchangeably ordained all things…. whatsoever comes to pass.

God has ordained that a person should not kill, yet people kill. He has ordained that a person should not steal or bear false witness, yet people steal and swear falsely every day.

God does not force anyone to keep his ordinances, but He will indeed punish them if they do not keep them.

Let’s consider what Paul wrote…

Romans 13:1,2 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

There is no authority except from God… the authority that does exist has been instituted by God. As we see, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed/ordained. But how can anyone successfully resists that which God has unchangeably ordained as this false doctrine would imply?

Let’s now consider Jonah chapter 3…

Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them. The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish." When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:1-10)

God told Jonah to say, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

This was a decree or ordinance of God, yet it did not come to pass. Note that “When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.”

What God ordained was in fact changeable… not unchangeable.

Consider 2 Kings 20…

“In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover.'" (2 Kings 20:1)

It was ordained of God that Hezekiah would die… he would not recover from his sickness. Yet, what do we see happen?

Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying, "Now, O LORD, please remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah the leader of my people, Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD, and I will add fifteen years to your life. (2 Kings 20:2-6a)

Hezekiah prayed and God heard his prayer. What God had previously ordained was changed and fifteen years added to Hezekiah’s life. What caused God to change His mind? Hezekiah’s prayer and tears! What God had ordained was in fact changeable.

There are many other examples throughout the Bible of things ordained of God being changeable… which would thwart any theory that everything that comes to pass is unchangeably ordained. It is impossible to harmonize such a theory with the Bible.


This false doctrine would have God grieving over His own foolishness. Is God really foolish? Consider the following…

Genesis 6:5,6 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

If God fore-ordained everything that comes to pass, He fore-ordained every thing the early people did… why then did He grieve over their wickedness when every act was of His own absolute and eternal ordinance? God would be grieving over His own folly.

Let’s consider the following to further see the silliness of this false doctrine…

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Jeremiah 19:4,5 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind--

If in fact God fore-ordained every thing that comes to pass, He fore-ordained these things we read of in Jeremiah because they came to pass. God said He did not command them, he did not decree them, nor did they come into His mind.

Please, anyone supporting this false doctrine, enlighten us all as to how God fore-ordained things which never entered His mind.

What sense could be made of the sin of Adam? God made him and placed him under law. It came to pass that Adam violated God’s law when he ate of the fruit that God commanded him not to eat. If God fore-ordained every thing that comes to pass, then He fore-ordained that Adam should eat the fruit, because it came to pass that Adam did in fact eat of the fruit. God and the law decreed that he should not eat, yet God ordained that he should eat. Either Adam eats and violates the law or he does not eat and changes the unchangeable decree of God. It is apparent to eat and violate the law was a necessity, yet God punished Adam for it.

If this false doctrine is true, then the entire theory of sin, accountability, rewards and punishment, which are all in harmony with God's justice and mercy… is totally and utterly incomprehensible. Clearly this false doctrine is at war with the Bible and is in fact proven to indeed be a false doctrine.

Felix, now that you know the truth, you should immediately do the works of God... believe, repent, confess and be baptized to wash away your sins... and remain faithful. If you need more help understanding this Felix, we will be glad to assist you, but please, no more babbling about false doctrines.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Dear Brother Sonnie,

Once again thank you for taking the time. I also thank God for permitting us to have the conversations that we have had so far. First, let me correct an unfortunate typographical error in my answer to your question.

I meant to say that God has ordained and/or permits all things.

I suspect that this is not going to change your obviously demonstrated strong objection to this “false doctrine” as you have called it. There is not much more that I could say at this point. It is not likely that we would resolve the obvious differences in our understanding of the matters raised. So let’s leave it there for now.

Nevertheless, we must remain thankful to God for His graciousness. He forgives the foolishness of us all, even the foolishness of not paying a closer attention to His word.

My prayer is that the Holy Spirit would continue to enlighten our minds to understand His word to the end that we would pay appropriate tribute to His ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY with reverent fear. That we may also worship Him with utmost gratitude for His grace – the unmerited favor – that He grants generally to His creation and particularly to His elect. He is God Almighty, holy and immutable. He reigns eternal. To Him be glory for ever. Amen!


May God bless and keep you my dear brother.
Sincerely,
Felix

Heehee... I attended a Presbyterian Church for about 11 years, very familiar with the false doctrines of Calvinism... the five points of Calvinism, all the predestination bologna, the Westminster Confession, etc.,etc. I finally figured out there was the Bible and that I no longer needed all those man-made doctrines... the truth will set you free...

I'll be posting some very thorough responses to Calvinism at some point in time. It's about as clear as it gets that it's at complete war with the Bible. Be sure to check in often and maybe you'll see the light one day.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Dear Brother Sonnie,

Again I thank you for your note promising to post responses to what you call the “false doctrines of Calvinism”.

I am looking forward to your postings. Since you have demonstrated a commitment to the Bible, I would particularly be interested in seeing how you explain these Bible passages:

1. John 1:12 & 13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

(…without the usual freewill insistence on verse 12 to the exclusion of verse 13; or without providing a new meaning to what verse 13 says altogether; or without placing the so called man’s part and God’s part on equal footing as though men and God have different but equally crucial parts to play in the matter of salvation; etc. )

2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)

3. Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”

(…without providing a new meaning to the Biblical understanding of “DEAD”)

4. 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(…without implying that Gods’ wish for “none” to perish can be undone by the simple exercise of a person’s independent wish)

There are more Bible passages of course and I have no doubt that you are going to provide some as well. Knowing that the Scriptures are in perfect unity and harmony, I would be very interested to see how you maintain this Scriptural harmony and unity in your postings.

Meanwhile, I remain thankful and I hope that you are likewise thankful to God for His redeeming, retaining, restraining, restoring, reassuring, refining and refreshing grace.

Your Brother in Christ,
Felix

I'll work on those for you when I get a chance... but they say what they say... and they certainly don't support the false doctrines of Calvinism. Most likely you are taking them out of context in order to help support your own opinions.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Dear Brother Sonnie,

I am waiting with great interest to see your postings.

Sincerely in the Lord,
Felix

Felix,

Greetings.

You said:
Again I thank you for your note promising to post responses to what you call the “false doctrines of Calvinism”.

I am looking forward to your postings. Since you have demonstrated a commitment to the Bible, I would particularly be interested in seeing how you explain these Bible passages:

1. John 1:12 & 13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

(…without the usual freewill insistence on verse 12 to the exclusion of verse 13; or without providing a new meaning to what verse 13 says altogether; or without placing the so called man’s part and God’s part on equal footing as though men and God have different but equally crucial parts to play in the matter of salvation; etc. )

ELDV: The first phrase says everything: "as many as received him". As many as received him were given the ability to be born of God, which is the new birth (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-7).

Felix:
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

(…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)

ELDV: God would draw all men to Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but men refuse him.

Felix:
3. Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”

(…without providing a new meaning to the Biblical understanding of “DEAD”)

ELDV: Absolutely (Romans 6:23). While we were in sin, we were as dead men walking.

Felix:
4. 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

(…without implying that Gods’ wish for “none” to perish can be undone by the simple exercise of a person’s independent wish)

ELDV: You obviously see the problem with your own interpretation. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 both indicate God's desire is for "all" to be saved, and yet we know that all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Either we can dispense with the false assumption that God's sovereignty demands that God's wishes must come to pass, or we're left with a massive inconsistency.

This is a declarative statement that cannot be denied.

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV

The Calvinistic God is a mess or a sadist; regardless, he is not the LORD of Hosts.

ELDV

__________________
Ethan R. Longhenry / deusvitae@hotmail.com
Evangelist, church of Christ in Norwalk, Ohio
Homepage

Amen Ethan... thank you for chiming in.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Felix, I am glad you are willing to discuss the Word of God.

I wanted to mention something I read in a previous post:

Sonnie asked you, "Do you believe that God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?"

You said, "Yes, I believe this."

You then said something different when you said, "He ordained and/permits all things. This is my answer."

Felix, there is a MAJOR difference between God ordaining something (issuing an order), and permitting something (allowing something to take place). There is a difference between:

a) God issuing an order for Cain to slay Abel, and
b) God permitting Cain to have the freedom of choice to do good or evil.

If you believe that God does not foreordain everything, but merely permits some things, then you yourself are in disagreement with the doctrine of Calvinism -- a doctrine that it seemed as if you were defending. It is redundant to say that God permits what He ordains, so for the sake of clarity, please answer this question with a simple yes or no answer:

Does God freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass?

I have another question.. Does man have free will to do what he chooses? If not, how would true love be possible? Does not God want us to love Him? Is not love the greatest of all commandments that we are to obey? How can we truly love if we do not have free will? Can your computer love you? If you program it to audibly say "I love you" ten times a day, does that mean that your computer really loves you? Again, is it not an accurate statement to say that true love is impossible without free will?

In regards to your last post:
The "without" phrases that you gave after each of the above verses are obviously an attempt to disarm anyone who would disagree with Calvinistic doctrine. I am more concerned about closely examining these verses, the context of these verses, and rightly dividing the sum of God's Word than I am concerned about tip-toeing around your personal criteria for exegesis. Now, with that being said, let us notice these verses you mentioned in a loving, honest way:

John 1:12, 13 – "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).

Verse 12 clearly states that God gave those who receive Him the power to become the sons of God.

Verse 13 mentions being born of God, and the New Testament teaches us that the new birth happens when a person is baptized into Christ, being raised up to walk in new life (new birth): "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection" (Romans 6:3-5). Who is it that walks in newness of life, but someone who has just been born again? Who is it that walks in newness of life, but someone who has just entered into new life after baptism into Christ? Notice also the condition "if" in that last verse, which tells us that we must be planted together in the likeness of Christ's death (baptized into His death) to be in the likeness of His resurrection. The new birth is also described in Titus 3:5, in which it is called the "washing [baptism] of regeneration [new birth];" and in Ephesians 5:26 it is called the sanctification and cleansing of the "washing of water [baptism]," which we are repeatedly instructed to do by the Word.


John 6:44 – Why do you all never mention the following verse? =)

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" (John 6:44, 45).

Felix, it seems that you have failed to examine the context of John 6:44, which tells us exactly how a person is drawn to Christ! The power to produce faith does not lie in a direct operation of the Holy Spirit upon the sinner (as Calvinism teaches), but rather the power is in the Word of God: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Paul said we are called to God by the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).

You said (…without providing a new meaning to the understanding of “NO ONE” and the Father’s “DRAWING”)… Let it be known that I did not provide a new meaning; I merely closely examined the context, and rightly divided the Word. "The sum of [God's] word is truth," not just bits and pieces of it (Psalm 119:160).

Please continue to my next post...

Jason Hilburn

Ephesians 2:1 – All Christians were once dead in trespasses and sins, but the Bible does not teach that one has no part in changing his spiritual situation. You said not to redefine "dead." Obviously death in Ephesians 2:1 does not mean physical death. It means spiritual death, which is separation from God. This is the Biblical meaning of spiritual death, per verses such as Isaiah 59:1, 2. There is no spiritual life apart from God, and the lack of spiritual life equals spiritual death. Please notice the following in regards to how and when a person is made alive in Christ:

You yourself mentioned 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Notice he said if we are "in Christ," and Paul told us that we are not in Christ until we are "baptized into Christ"! Therefore it is unscriptural to teach that we are in God (saved) before baptism. There are only two places in the Bible which explicitly tell us how we get "into Christ," and they both say that we are "baptized into" Christ (Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3). I encourage you to do a search for the phrases "into Christ" and "into Jesus" throughout the New Testament, and I assure you that these will be the only two verses found.

Paul taught the same thing in all the churches (1 Cor. 4:17, 7:17). In 2 Cor. 5:17 Paul is using the same terminology of putting our old selves in the grave that he used in Colossians 2 when he was discussing baptism: "...putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:11-13).

Baptism is a burial (Colossians 2:12). If a person is alive in Christ immediately after the point of faith, are we burying people who are alive when we baptize them? Shouldn't we be burying dead people? The Bible teaches that before we are baptized we are dead, but after baptism we walk in new life (Romans 6:3-5). Paul said that when we are baptized into Christ we put our old man to death, and we are raised to walk in newness of life:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Paul used the same terminology in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "such were some of you, but ye are washed, ye are sanctified." Compare this with Titus 3:5 (washing [baptism] of regeneration [new birth]) and Ephesians 5:26 (sanctification and cleansing by "the washing of water"). I know commentators are not inspired by God, but I thought B. W. Johnson's note on Ephesians 5:26 was interesting when he wrote, "All commentators of repute in all bodies refer this to baptism."

The Bible teaches that we are not sanctified and cleansed until after baptism. The fact that we are not in Christ until after baptism kills the doctrine of Calvinism, because we chose to believe, repent, confess, and obey God before we were "in God"; before we were "sanctified" by Him; before we were "cleansed by Him"; before we became a new creature "in Christ", etc. So when someone tries to use Ephesians 2:1 to say that a dead person cannot do anything because he is dead, that is completely unscriptural, and is merely a tactic to make one disregard what the rest of the Bible says!

Paul said we are not free from sin until after we obey God: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:16-18). "That form of doctrine" he mentioned was being baptized into Christ, which is found earlier in the same chapter (Romans 6:3-5).

Peter said that our souls are not purified until we obey the truth. Notice in the following verse that we purify our souls by obeying the truth: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22). From this we learn that we have a part in purifying our souls, and that we are not purified until after obedience.

Peter said that baptism is for the remission of sins [which would equal purification of the sin-stained soul]: "be baptized...for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Peter also told them, "Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40). They did not have the power to save themselves without God's help, but they did have to choose to obey God's commands if they wanted to be saved (v38).

Also notice Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." God gave them a choice to make.

Joshua 24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15). God gave them a choice to make.

We are dead until we choose to be baptized to walk in newness of life. Later within the same context of Ephesians 2:1, Paul said, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6). Paul tells us in Romans how we are raised, and how we get "in Christ Jesus," and this is through baptism (see Romans 6:3-5 above). This is not a work of human righteousness (like saving a baby from a burning building), but rather a work of Godly righteousness (doing what God told us to do to be counted righteous). "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (1 John 3:7). "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34, 35).


2 Peter 3:9 – "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Felix, I do not understand why you mentioned this verse, because it totally contradicts what you teach! God wishes for all to come to repentance… Will all men come to repentance? All men will not come to repentance. God "…would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4 ASV). God desires for all men to be saved, but this is not going to happen! God would have all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, but this is not going to happen! Jesus said that a minority of people will go to Heaven – those who do the will of the Father (Matthew 7:13, 14, 21); so even though God would like all men to come to repentance, this will not happen because God loved us enough to give us free will!

Man has the power to do the will of God, and man has the power to refuse to do the will of God. Was it God's will for Cain to kill Abel? No! Was it God's will for homosexuality to run rampant in Sodom? No! Was it God's will for people to burn their babies in sacrifices to pagan gods during Old Testament times? No!

Calvinism's erroneous view of God would have us to believe that every single event that happens is because it was God's will for it to happen. Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:21 clearly implies that God's will is not always done: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). One might also wonder why Jesus taught His disciples to pray that the will of the Father would be done, if God's will is always done? That would be like Jesus telling us to pray that God will always be holy!

In the following verse, does the phrase "sin willfully" refer to the will of these Hebrews, or the will of God? "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Hebrews 10:26)? Obviously we have a will of our own. When we choose to do our selfish will rather than God's will, we sin.

Calvinism leads us to the conclusion that a man who raped a 10 year old girl did so because God made him do it. Then the man goes to jail all of his life because God made him rape the girl. Then God sends the man to Hell for something that God made him do in the first place! I'm sure Satan loves Calvinism, because it makes God look like an evil respecter of persons. While it is true that God has chosen men or nations to carry out His will, God has no respect for persons when it comes to salvation. He judges us in an impartial way, according to what we choose to do.

Do I believe in the Biblical doctrines of election and predestination? Of course! However, the Biblical doctrines of election and predestination are much different from Calvinism's teaching on these subjects. From God's Word we learn that God has elected to save all who "choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19); all who "choose" to serve the Lord (Joshua 25:14); all those who choose to obey Him (Hebrews 5:9). He has predestined a group to be saved, and that group is Christ's church (Ephesians 5:23). We are not predestined to be saved or condemned on an individual basis, because that would make God a respecter of persons! Christ's church is made up of people who loved God enough to obey Him and enter into His church. God is no respecter of persons, so He will not force anyone to enter Christ's church for salvation; neither will He keep anyone out of Christ's church who desires to enter the body in the Scriptural way. God has predetermined that He will save a certain group of people - those who will enter into Christ's church.. They are the elect because they chose to be of the elect.

Calvinism falls with these words: "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" (1 Peter 1:16, 17).

"Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons" (Colossians 3:24, 25).

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:9-11).

Jason Hilburn

Okay... I'll just toss my reply in the garbage...


Excellent Brother Jason... excellent...

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

My Dear Brothers Ethan & Jason,

Thank you for your postings. There are so many things said in your postings that pose several questions. Perhaps going back to some basics is necessary.

Please pardon any errors- spellings, etc. -that you might find. I am willing to explain anything that is not clear to you. It goes to show that I certainly need God to take care of such a crucial matter as my ultimate salvation lest I ruin it due to my inexcusable yet inevitable human imperfections and inconsistencies.

You have demonstrated a passionate adherence to what you believe to be the truth. This is to be commended. Anyone who believes something ought to show this kind of passion regarding what is believed. Otherwise, it is not a true belief. This does not mean that what is believed is necessarily the truth. Countless people passionately believe fallacies. All of us, due to our imperfect and unreliable human wisdom, are prone to errors in our beliefs and the expression of these beliefs. This is precisely why we must acknowledge God’s unilateral and determinate help without which errors shall abound.

All beliefs must be checked against God’s infallible word. Thankfully, God has made His truth simple. It consists of elementary yet profound facts. Sadly, in our typical human fashion of espousing our beliefs with shifting points of focus, the facts often become obscured.

Some people think that these matters that we are now discussing are insignificant or irrelevant. Others give names to the different positions and conclude that they are mere controversies that should be avoided or ignored. In reality, these are crucial matters. They pertain to how we ultimately view and respond to God. He is our creator to whom we shall ultimately give account. These are matters pertaining to why we exist.

Although your position appears to be logical from the perspective of encouraging us to “win souls”, we exist for a more profound and eternal purpose than the temporal charge of Matthew 28:19 - “go ye into the world and make disciples”. This is important but it is not the primary purpose for our existence.

In fact, evidence in the church at large, irrespective of the denomination or creed, shows that even this temporal charge is being pursued with varied understanding and through methods that are froth with human pride and other vices. Many people have taken to a mechanical human way that says “just decide to believe” and you will be saved. This is driven by the misunderstanding that obtaining eternal salvation is discretional. At the other extreme, people simply conclude that since eternal salvation is totally the work God, they can sit back and do nothing. Thus the practical expression of their gratitude for God’s unmerited grace wanes.

In the process of examining the facts, we must also ask ourselves some personal yet crucial questions. Aside from what anybody else says, you must privately ask yourself as I must ask myself:

1. Am I truly sure (not deluded) that I am saved?
2. Am I absolutely sure (not deluded) that I am going to heaven?
3. Can I fully trust that my decision has done it?
4. Can I perfectly and independently maintain the requirements for my salvation?
5. If per chance I die suddenly due to an accident or otherwise after having committed a sin and had no prior chance to repent, can I be sure that shall be going to heaven?
6. With the demonstrated tenuousness of some of these questions, what can I say is the basis for any confidence that I can have concerning my salvation?

Here are some basic facts that are preventing me from adopting your position that my eternal salvation crucially depends on the exercise of my freewill:

1. Whether “saved” or “unsaved” the human will is remains corrupt with sin and worldliness unless God intervenes to direct it. The human will is irresolute and can only produce an irresolute salvation wherever it is independently exercised. It cannot produce any reliable salvation. Hence, claims of the human freewill position in the matter of eternal salvation also concede that salvation can be lost.

2. The behavior of people inside and outside the church indisputably demonstrates the fact that the human will is corrupt and irresolute. The Bible confirms this fact – Read through the entire Bible. You will see what I mean.

3. Only GOD is GOD and He is truly GOD.

4. GOD and only GOD is our saviour and our salvation wrought by God is absolutely resolute and reliable.

5. GOD graciously caters to the well-being of humans but He is not obligated to do so.

6. GOD and only GOD must be and will be worshiped.

7. GOD’s sovereignty is absolute. Else He is not GOD and must be subjugated under the rule or will of another.

8. GOD would not and does not share the worship due Him. This includes the fact that GOD would not and does not share the credit due Him.

9. To share in the credit that belongs to GOD is to share the worship that is due Him.

10. To say that I am my own saviour is to share in the credit that belongs to GOD.

11. If I say that my salvation depends on the exercise of my own freewill, then I am essentially saying that I am, to that extent, my own saviour.

12. Even the thought that the “freewill” is my own is insolent. For it was given to me by GOD. Then to extend the scope of this so called “freewill” to deciding ultimate matters is greater insolence and affront against God. All ultimate decisions with regards to all of GOD’s creation fall under the exclusive domain of GOD.

13. In whatever manner we make ourselves out to be our ultimate saviours, we make ourselves into being our own gods. The moment we do that we become blatantly guilty of the first commandment (Ex 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me). No amount of pretence or denial that we “have done no such thing” can absolve us of the guilt of such a grievous sin against GOD.

14. Our understanding of how we become saved determines to whom we attribute the credit and therefore to whom we direct our gratitude and worship. To attribute the credit or even the tiniest part of it to any one other than God is a grievous sin.

This is obviously a serious matter that can not be ignored while we zealously purse the “salvation of souls for the LORD” We must learn from the example of Uzzah – II Sam 6:6 & 7. The deception is very subtle in thinking that God cannot save us if we do not first allow Him by independently choosing to believe him. The subtlety of this deception does not negate the gravity of the sin that it draws us into.

The diminishing of God’s sovereignty and power because of any misinformed zeal to save souls is akin to Uzzah’s sin. Souls must be saved, will be saved, and are being saved according to God’s effectual will.

The thought that we can seat back and do nothing about our salvation is equally sinful. God grants us grace that is so great and unmerited. The least we can do is to respond with gratitude and obedience.

We must respond to God but it is not to secure our place in heaven. It is to glorify God. This is the purpose for which we were created. This is what we shall continue to do in heaven. We must also testify to the glory and grace of God on earth. This is primarily to glorify God. If souls turn to Christ because of our testimony, all the praise and credit must go to God for it is His doing. Let us not think that we are the saviours of the world and thereby worship ourselves. This is the aspiration of satan for which he is eternally doomed – Isaiah 14: 12 - 15.

God has given us a will and He also helps us to appropriately use it. Our will is by no means free. It must yield to God and it ultimately answers to Him. The argument about being robots is simply a ploy of the deceiver to evoke human-centered pride in us. Let us not fall for it: James 4:6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore {it} says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

*** Now, it is your turn. What is preventing you from adopting my position that your eternal salvation is completely the work of God? What are the sins that this position leads us into? ***


Your's in Christ,
Felix

Dear Brothers Ethan,

Regarding your postings as quoted below, please see my observations and comments:

With Reference to John 1:12 & 13: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

ELDV: The first phrase says everything: "as many as received him". As many as received him were given the ability to be born of God, which is the new birth (John 3:5, Romans 6:3-7).

Felix – This verse should be understood correctly in light of other Scriptures rather than from the perspective of the simple phraseology. It does not say “spiritually receiving” comes before “spiritual birth”. Many passages in the Bible present the reality that “spiritual birth” comes before a person can have the “spiritual vitality” to “spiritually receive or believe”.

In fact, God knows that men would think that they have something to do with their regeneration. Hence He gave us verse 13 to stress: “who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”? This emphasis clearly counters the notion that the “will of man” must be exercised before a person can be born of God (regeneration).

This John 1: 12 & 13 passage is in perfect harmony with Eph 2:1 – The spiritually dead must be spiritually awakened (made alive) by God before they can show any marks of spiritual vitality such as believing Christ.

The foregoing verses are also in perfect agreement with John 3: 5 -8- If a person’s regeneration is dependent on the exercise of the person’s free will, then verse 8 does not make sense. However, it makes sense because regeneration is wrought in us by God (the Holy Spirit). Regeneration like “the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”. Again this is in agreement with John 6:44. It is the Father who draws us into coming to Him, and with Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
As for your citing of John 3:5 & Romans 6 3-7 , these verses do not tell me that it is up to me to choose out of my own free will.

With reference to John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

ELDV: God would draw all men to Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but men refuse him.

Felix – Going by your comment I could say: “God is not the boss of me”. I can refuse to do what He wishes. On the other hand, I know that this would be a foolish (not a freewill) stance to take. If there is any consequence that I would suffer because I refuse Him, then “He is the boss of me” and I must do what he says. Lest I suffer the consequence. A truly “free” will must also be free of consequences for its choices or actions. Else it is not a “free” will.

With reference to Eph 2:1 “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins”


ELDV: Absolutely (Romans 6:23). While we were in sin, we were as dead men walking.

Felix- I hardly see your commentary on Romans 6:23 as what the verse is saying. Romans 6:23 says: “For the wages of sin is death, but the free grace of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This verse clearly has more than the temporal life in view. It also says nothing about my free will.
Eph. 2:1, on the other hand, speaks of being spiritually dead. Traversing between the spiritual and physical death in the interpretation of the term “DEAD” in this passage only obscures the truth. The verse speaks of being spiritually dead. This means being spiritually unresponsive. It agrees perfectly with I-Cor 2:14 - But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.” Simply put, a person who is spiritually dead cannot be spiritually responsive without the Holy Spirit’s infusion of spiritual vitality to that person.

Regarding 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

ELDV: You obviously see the problem with your own interpretation. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 both indicate God's desire is for "all" to be saved, and yet we know that all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14). Either we can dispense with the false assumption that God's sovereignty demands that God's wishes must come to pass, or we're left with a massive inconsistency.

Felix – What inconsistencies do you see? Will some of God’s wishes not come to pass? How then can we have any confidence that His wish to save us after we have done our so called part of “receiving Him” will come to pass? How can we have any confidence in the fulfillment of any of His promises or prophecies?

ELDV: This is a declarative statement that cannot be denied.
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV

ELDV: The Calvinistic God is a mess or a sadist; regardless, he is not the LORD of Hosts.

Felix – Whether there is such a God as a “Calvinist God” I do not know. All I know is that God is not a sadist simply because He is absolutely sovereign and free to do as He pleases with His creation.

Felix:
God was not a sadist; but sovereign when He commanded Saul in 1 Sam 15:18 and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.'

God was not a sadist; but sovereign in the biblical account about Uzzah - 2 Sam 6:6 & 7 - But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset {it.} And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God.

God is not a sadist; but sovereign when He pre-determined the death of Christ - Acts 2:23 this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

God is not a sadist; but sovereign when He decreed: Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

My dear brother, the true God is neither a sadist nor can He be sidelined to wait for human decisions. He is God Almighty - Ps 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.

God is free to exercise His infinite wisdom and absolute sovereignty as he wishes. Who are we to question Him?  Romans 9:10-18. God is righteous in all His ways.

God is not, cannot be, and should never be measured according to human standards, expectations or definitions. He is the measure of all things. God’s actions are not governed by any external standards of evaluation. God's actions produce perfection in that He acts and perfection is the result. God does not need to weigh His intentions to see if they are right before carrying them out. Whatever God does is automatically and perfectly right.

In the human economy, the "wrongness" and "rightness" of actions are judged against pre-defined standards. Most of our moral judgments are tainted by the self-centered focus on human well-being as the utmost standard for measuring “rightness” or “wrongness”. This is not the case with our transcendent God. Humans have not become untouchable to God. A thing gains its quality of being right because God does it; not because it caters to the well-being of humans. God is the standard of righteousness; but more than that, He is the source of righteousness.

An insidious and idolatrous focus on the importance of humans may cause people to question God’s actions such as His election or predestination of humans. This folly of judging God’s actions according to some pre-defined human standards and expectations is common even among Christians. This is a shame. Wisdom dictates that we must acquiesce with gratitude that whatever God does is right.


Your's in Christ,
Felix

ELDV: It has to be mentioned and emphasized here how you have simply provided logistical syllogisms and not much with Scripture behind it. This is so, of course, because while Calvin's system may be logical, it does not come with Scripture behind it.

You presuppose that man has absolutely no good in him at all or any ability to recognize the need for salvation. Plenty in the Bible thwarts what you say-- even Jesus Himself recognized how Gentiles and tax collectors do good to those who do good to them and love their families, etc. (Matthew 5).

You presuppose that since God is certain and God is sovereign that His salvation cannot be lost, despite clear Biblical demonstrations that one can depart from God and be lost (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-31). Your logical system cannot embrace these Scriptures, but must try to get away from them.

You presuppose that mankind has never had involvement in God's greatness, and yet the Bible is replete of instances where mankind has been necessary to accomplish God's will.

God could part the Red Sea; the Israelites still had to cross through.
God could give Israel Canaan; the Israelites still had to fight.
Likewise, God could give eternal life through Christ Jesus, and yet we are not expected to do anything? This makes the entire book meaningless.

As to free will, look no further to Israel: if mankind has no free will, explain Israel's apostasy and God's allowance of the fact.


ELDV: So now we have semantical games so that you can escape the natural conclusion of your beliefs-- if God is the only Actor, and I am only acted upon, it must necessarily follow that I have no role. Yet you say that I have a role. How is my response of gratitude and obedience any less, as you say, "insolent," than the idea that I can realize my own wretchedness and come to God for cleansing? No one here is going to say that the purpose of our response to God is to "secure our place in heaven". Our response to God is to become obedient to Him to glorify Him. What you would ascribe to what happens after regeneration only I assert happens at conversion also, with plenty of instances in Acts, the history of Israel, and plenty of God's statements that show it (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:34-39, Romans 6:3-7, 6:16-18; 1 Peter 3:21).

ELDV: The argument about being robots is exactly correct-- it is no matter of "human pride". The god you conceive of either pulls mankind by strings from Heaven, being the only Actor, or He has allowed mankind choice. If mankind has no free will, then Israel should all means have always been faithful, or what kind of god did the Israelites worship who intentionally compelled them to apostasize from Him while presenting such lucid prose and poetry in the prophets to woo them back? Entirely incomprehensible!

A simple question:

Will those who will be condemned be condemned based on God's pre-existent choice or by their own sin?

And what prevents me from your position is that the Bible does not teach it. A bunch of logistic syllogisms from men who have philosophized away from the Scriptures to create their own systems will not suffice because it simply cannot answer the force of the Scriptures.

Man has always had the choice.
Man more often than not do not choose God.
God has always wooed, and has never ravished.
It is impossible to explain the nature of the Scriptures regarding Israel, its apostasy, and God's calling of Israel back, the Scriptures regarding man's role in conversion, the Scriptures regarding God's desire that all men be saved, and the Scriptures forcefully establishing that a Christian can sin so as to fall away and be lost by positing the syllogisms of Calvin. That is why even many Calvinist denominations have moved away from it!

ELDV

__________________
Ethan R. Longhenry / deusvitae@hotmail.com
Evangelist, church of Christ in Norwalk, Ohio
Homepage

It's pretty simple... ignore the scriptures and you can support Calvinism, Catholicism, Pentecostalism or any other denomination for that matter. Why someone would want to risk their soul with such silly beliefs that are absolutely and unmistakably at war with the Bible is what is incomprehensible and completely foolish. It is impossible to support Calvinism with scriptures, it has never been accomplished and it most certainly isn't being accomplished here, as anyone reading can clearly discern.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Hello Felix,

I’ve been reading the comments from my fellow brothers and yourself. I decided that I could post a little something in hopes that you may see what we’re telling you is the Truth and you have been taught a false doctrine. I urge you not to write anything we say off before consulting the Bible.

Now, Jason touched on the greatest commandment and how it would be impossible to fulfill that commandment if God has complete control on our very actions.

Matthew 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 - This is the first and great commandment.

The Bible on many separate occasions teaches us that not only are we to love our God but God loves us dearly.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

2nd Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2nd Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.

1st John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

And probably the most well known and misinterpreted verse in the entire Bible.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Let’s keep in mind that we are commanded to love God. Let’s also keep in mind that God loves us as well. Now, keeping all of this in mind, let’s look at predestination for a moment. According to what you have learned, God has already decided whether I am to go to Heaven or Hell. Before my birth, God had already unchangeably decided my fate unbeknownst to me. Not only has He decided my fate, but He has decided the fate of everyone who has posted on this forum. Not only has He decided our fates, but He has decided the fate of everyone who has looked at this forum at least once. Not only has He decided the fates of these people, He’s decided the fate of everyone who uses the internet. Not only has He decided their fates, but He’s decided the fate of every man, woman, and child on this entire planet.

I’d like to use a somewhat grim example for a moment if you will. Let’s say a man for one reason or another decides to murder any given person on any given day. Now, if that man were to murder four more innocent people before he was captured by the police. That man sits in a prison cell for years before being put to death by lethal injection. Do you mean to tell me that God decided that this man was to be put to death by lethal injection…just because?

How could one say that this is a just and loving God who would ordain something like this to happen? To say that God hands out a judgment towards a soul before one’s life is ludicrous. If God is nothing more than a “Master of Puppets” so to speak, who controls our every last movement and damns any soul just because He can, then God cannot be the loving figure He is portrayed to be in the Bible. If God is not the loving figure He is portrayed to be in the Bible, then the teachings in the Bible are false.

The Bible teaches us that God loves us dearly. Therefore, it’s fairly obvious that God would give us the free will to make our own decisions, whether they are right or wrong. He gave us this free will because He loves us.

1st John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God is love. In order to know God, we must love Him. If we are bound to love God because He forces us to, then we do not truly love God. On the same token, God cannot truly love Christians if He forces them to be as such and forces others to purposely stray.

I welcome any questions or comments,
Andrew

__________________
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
Hebrews 11:7

Dear Brother Andrew,

You seem to have focused on the love of God to the exclusion of His other attributes. Most conspicuousy, you have not considered His absolute sovereignty. This is His absolute authority to do as He pleases with His creation. Psalm 135:6: Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

Now, in light of what you have said, please explain what you understand the following Scripture passage to be saying:


Rom 9:9 – 24:
For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived {twins} by one man, our father Isaac;
for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.[/U] You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,{even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


And I thank you in advance for taking the time to explain.

Sincerely.
Felix

The passage you reference in no way can be interpreted that God would lose His sovereignty if He allowed free choice. As a matter of fact, there are no passages in the Bible that could be interpreted in such a manner, not unless you want to twist and malign a few...

This is what I'm seeing with all this Felix... you have asked us to explain quite a lot of scripture to you and we have done so quite well with massive explanation and supporting scripture. So, either you aren't reading our answers or it just isn't registering with you. There's no way you can have an open mind and wiggle around all we have presented you and still come to the conclusion of us merely being puppets or robots. As a brother stated earlier... your beliefs have holes and gaps galore and it's impossible to get the Bible to harmonize with your thoughts.

Going forward, I must insist that in order for the conversation to continue, if you would like any scripture explained, please give us your explanation of that scripture first. BUT, before we even get that far, we all would appreciate your explanations and response to ALL the information and Biblical truths that we have provided you with thus. Any other posts by you that waver from this request will be deleted. Sorry, but we cannot and will not allow you to simply use us as a punching board.

If you feel like it's time for us to dust our feet off and you move on... we will understand.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Dear Brother,


I see that this Romans 9: 9-24 passage poses several convicting challenges to your claims. It actually needs no additional explanations. It speaks quite clearly in plain English.

You are correct. The point of the passage is not to say that God loses his sovereignty. It says quite the opposite: God is sovereign and would exercise His sovereignty irrespective of what people choose to do. He is the one calling the shots.

1. How does this sit with your theory of the free choice of man in deciding ultimate matters? The passage says: “for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

2. How does this passage sit with your claim that God would not be the God of love if He does not allow people to have free choice in deciding their fate? What did Esau do before he was born to warrant God hating him? The passage says: for though {the twins} were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to {His} choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

3. How does the passage sit with the claim that we would be robots if God were to simply do as He pleases with us? The passage says: “You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?”

In several instances you indicated that I was not quoting the Scriptures to back my arguments. Here I simply gave a passage of Scripture that needs no explanation and you want me to give my explanation first. The reason I asked you to explain it is because it is one Bible passage, and there are many, that causes your arguments to be indefensible. This is bound to result in the kind of frustration that leads to such sentiments as you have expressed in your statement: “If you feel like it's time for us to dust our feet off and you move on... we will understand.”

We may move on but this is under the full control of God. If we remain alive to ponder these matters, it is because God sovereignly allows us to live on inspite of our foolishness and sinfulness. God remains sovereign and would exercise His sovereignty irrespective of what people choose to do. He is the one calling the shots. He is God.

It is not false doctrine to say God is indeed God Almighty and men must be humbled and subjugated under Him. The only thing that may cause us to say this is false doctrine is human pride.

You may delete this posting or provide a response to it if you so wish. Whatever you choose to do under God, my prayer remains that God would continue to be merciful and gracious to us all as He also helps us to understand and live according to His truth according to His will. God’s truth never changes and it will always vindicate itself simply because GOD is indeed GOD.

Before I discuss Romans… consider these two verses…

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

vs. this verse…

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Does God contradict Himself when He says He will have mercy on those that do His will and obey Him in the first two verses and then He says He will have vengeance on those who do not obey Him in the latter verse?

He will have mercy on those that do His will and obey Him, but if someone questions His judgment on this (as Paul is raising the possible objection), then He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Furthermore, extracting a few verses out of context from Romans will not support “irresistible grace” and “unconditional election”. We should consider these verses within the context of several other passages of Romans as well as other passages in the Bible... keeping it all in harmony. We can make up all kinds of religious beliefs grabbing a verse here and there.

Let’s consider your driving point, which I think would be from these passages...

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

These are two nations God is referencing, not individual babies… Jacob’s descendants who obeyed God, and Esau’s descendants, (the Edomites), who left God. We learn about them from Genesis…

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Even though God knew how each nation would be and what each nation would do, He did not make them be the way they were. God said He loved Jacob and hated Esau, but when did He say it? It was not until after the Edomites had shown that they were disobedient... and some 1400 years later that God stated He hated Esau. Consider God’s statement concerning this in Malachi…

Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Esau lived his life profane and a fornicator and this along with the Edomites rebellion towards God is why He loved them less…

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

The same word “hate” is found in Luke that is found in Romans 9…

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Is Jesus teaching that a true disciple of Christ will hate his parents? Of course not! The definition for the Greek word “hated” means “esteem less” or “love less”. A true disciple will love Jesus above his parents or above his family, or any material possession. In the same way, God loved Jacob more than Esau and blessed the world with Jesus through Jacob instead of Esau, in spite of Esau’s birthright. God did this because of His omniscience. His foreknowledge allowed Him to see the life of Jacob and Esau, thus He chose to use Jacob because of “things to come”…

Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

God further chose to reveal a portion of what He foreknew to Rebekah when He foretold of the two nations in her womb (Genesis 25:23 above). Esau’s life followed the path that God had foreseen and Esau despised his birthright (Hebrews 12:16 above). Then the Edomites followed the path that God had foreseen.

God’s “election” of Jacob was not pre-determined destiny, but rather points to Paul’s statement that factors other than fleshly descent had always been God’s way of determining who would be the descendants of Abraham. God’s election was a factor that entered into the determination as a consequence of other factors, which He foreknew. If Esau had been chosen instead of Jacob, the generations of people would not have lasted until the Messiah was delivered at the fullness of time, and God foreknew this. That is why God spoke of the “nations” and “manner of people” in Rebekah’s womb.

The providence of our all-knowing God intervened in the affairs of men, not in determining the destinies of these two men, but rather which of the two would be patriarch of the “children of Abraham”. So, in Romans 9:14, Paul turns to God’s righteousness (justice) in dealing with mankind. This is the major focus of the entire letter to the Romans. Your doctrine of “unconditional election” and “irresistible grace” actually argue against God’s justice and righteousness. They leave no room for justification by faith, which Paul clearly asserts…

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God’s justice and mercy are shown in that He displays His mercy upon those who come to Him in simple, trusting, obedient faith. In the same way, He withholds mercy from the profane people of the earth. God’s statement to Moses (Exodus 33:19) quoted by Paul in Romans 9 asserts the truth that there is just and rational foundation for everything God does. This does not teach that God is unpredictable in extending mercy and grace. God knows the heart, and His “election” is based on what is within us, as we can learn from the following passages…

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

This applies to the “elect in Christ” just as it did to Abraham and Jacob. Today, God saves those who hear His Word and do as He says. It is still grace, but it is justice in love, as well as God allows whosoever will come, to receive His free gift.

Romans 9:16 teaches us that Jews are not entitled to salvation just because they were born Jews, just as we are not saved because we “will it” or because meritorious work (“he that runs”) forces God to save us. We are saved because God is just, merciful, gracious, honorable, trustworthy, and He will do as He has promised. God said what He did to Moses because Moses asked to see His glory. God let him see it but it was not because He was obligated by the request, but rather He chose to do so. Moses glimpse of glory was not by merit, but by grace.

(Continued in next post)

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Now… concerning Pharaoh…

Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Notice first of all that God did not raise up Pharaoh to destroy him, He raised him up to show His power through him. Exactly how this was done was up to the free will of Pharaoh. It could have been by submission to God or by rebellion to God… either way, God’s power and glory was going to be displayed all over the world through Pharaoh. As far as Pharaoh’s heart, God hardened it by commanding him to do things that he did not want to do, thus Pharaoh actually hardened his own heart to begin with.. Jesus says that the same thing happens to us when we realize that God commands us to do something through His word and we lack a desire to do them. We harden our hearts against Him. We can see this in Luke 8…

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

God could have snapped His fingers and forced Pharaoh to surrender, but He didn’t. With the very first plague God could have continued it indefinitely and Pharaoh would have had to surrender, but God only made it last seven days because He did not want to force His will on Pharaoh. God wanted Pharaoh to release the Israelites on his own free will. Pharaoh ruled the land and a bunch of people (couple million?) and stood to lose a lot if he gave in easily. It hasn't been all that long ago that I watched the movie “The Ten Commandments” on a re-mastered DVD… pretty cool on a 97” screen. Anyway… Pharaoh obviously had a lot of pride and covetousness, and God foreknew this, but was still willing to give him a chance. God knew it would not work though, and He also knew that it would harden his heart even more. This is why God said He would harden his heart. In other words… God said “I will harden his heart” because He knew that what He was doing was going to force Pharaoh’s heart to harden… not that God intentionally hardened it (not to start with anyway - He did later). Every time Moses came to Pharaoh it would harden Pharaoh’s heart more. God gave Pharaoh plenty of chances to do this on his own and he rejected God. God saw that Pharaoh was spiritually blind and he was going to be a tough cookie and not give up on his own. This is when God began to actually harden Pharaoh’s heart intentionally.

There is no doubt that Pharaoh was an evil and cruel man and God used him to show His power, regardless of what choices Pharaoh made… and God did not take his free will away from him. God has used rulers and governments to carry out His will (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great, etc.), but that does not mean that he has ever predestined anyone to hell.

While God might let evil people rule, He is still sovereign over the rulers of the world. We learn this from Daniel…

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

I do not see how Romans 9 could be saying that God has elected some to be saved and some to be condemned, in light of the mere fact that it would cause contradiction in Heb 5:9 and 2Th 1:8, which are very clear as to what they say.

There is another story in the OT that shows how God gives us a choice and makes a promise based on obedience. When this obedience is not met then God will keep another promise He made. Consider Solomon’s sins and the consequences…

1Ki 11:9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
1Ki 11:10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
1Ki 11:11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
1Ki 11:12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

Then consider the promise to Jeroboam…

1Ki 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
1Ki 11:32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel
1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
1Ki 11:34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant is sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:
1Ki 11:35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
1Ki 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light always before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
1Ki 11:37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
1Ki 11:38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.

There are several points to be made here. Solomon would have his kingdom taken from him because he chose not to obey God and chose not to keep His commandments. God chose David because David kept His commandments. Jeroboam was the beneficiary of Solomon’s disobedience and was given ten tribes and the opportunity to reign as long as he so desired, BUT, God put conditions on His promise. God said, “And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee”. Jeroboam would have to keep God’s commandments as David did. God was willing to give Israel to Jeroboam… he stood to be very wealthy in the Lord. Jeroboam eventually became king and ruled as God promised but he chose to keep his people from going up to the house of the Lord in Jerusalem to make sacrifices…

1Ki 12:27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
1Ki 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
1Ki 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
1Ki 12:30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
1Ki 12:31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

Jeroboam chose to make idols and have his people worship them in fear that they would follow Rehoboam and end up killing him. Jeroboam continued in his sinful ways until eventually the Lord used him and his people to keep a promise he made to Solomon…

1Ki 13:34 And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

God gave Jeroboam a choice… Jeroboam could have “saved himself” and his people if he would have only kept God’s commandments, but he made bad choices and suffered the consequences, just like Solomon.

Now... how do you say it... this all poses several convicting challenges to your claims.

More later... gotta run for now.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

As promised... here's more on that entire Romans section you referenced.

Let's start at verse 6 instead of verse 9 so that we keep it in context with what Paul is communicating. I know it's hard for you to consider passages in context since doing so corrupts your theories and false doctrines, but we must rightly divide the Word of Truth!

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

This particular passage kept in context will show us that it is an argument for those who were basing everything on their fleshly relationship to Abraham. The Jews might raise the objection that God’s promise was of no effect. Paul throughout the rest of this chapter is answering this objection. Children of God are not merely children of the flesh or fleshly descendants of Abraham. Children of God are not all of Israel… they are not all of the “chosen ones” (the Jews). Abraham had other children other than Isaac but none of them were of the “chosen”. The children of God are also the children of the promise, who are of the seed according to the conditions of the promise. Your doctrine of unconditional election is not even close to being proven with this Scripture.

I discussed Rom 9:10-13 above… but to recap… God did not choose Jacob to his eternal salvation. He chose him to be head of the chosen people (a race), not all those that would necessarily be saved, as we have previously shown with supporting Scripture.

Rom 9:15-16 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”

I touched on this earlier, but let's discuss it further. Paul is answering a possible objection from some who might not be happy with God’s conditions of salvation. We do not deserve God’s favor and we have no right to question His ways. He chose, according to His own will and pleasure, the conditions in which we are saved, thereby pardoning anyone who meets those conditions. Because we have no right to His mercy, He does not have to give us a reason for His choice of conditions. He can do it to any extent He so desires and no one has a right to complain.

That it does not depend on the man who “willeth”, does not mean that we do not choose to be saved or that we are forced to be saved. We initially have no desire or wish (we do not “willeth”) to choose eternal life. We are influenced by the Word of God, and our faith from the evidence we have before us enables our heart to be willing. “Runneth” means (strenuous, intense effort, strive hard, run or walk hastily). That it does not depend on the man who “runneth”, does not mean that the sinner does not make any effort to be saved (after hearing the Word of God), or that Christians do not strive to enter heaven or it would contradict the following…

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

If it were left up to the sinner, he would never put forth any effort to be saved. In someway the sinner has to hear about God and understand the consequences of his sin. This is through the Word of God. The sinner then has to have faith in that evidence and have Godly sorrow. Therefore the Word of God is what encourages the sinner to seek salvation. The sinner does not receive God’s mercy because of the sinner seeking salvation on his own effort. There is no merit in anxiety, sinner’s prayers, and agony, on account of which God would forgive the sinner, but rather it is still on the dependence of God’s mercy to save or destroy him according to His will. The anxiousness, distress, and effort of the sinner does not obligate God to forgive the sinner anymore than it would obligate a judge to acquit a condemned criminal who is sorry for his crime or fearful of his sentence. God exercises his free choice just as He gives us free choice.

Salvation is definitely from God and it is because of His mercy. The idea behind Paul’s statement here is that God is the source of all the blessings of salvation. Christ is the author and source of salvation to all that obey Him.

Now I will ask you again, does God contradict Himself when He says He will have mercy on those that do His will and obey Him…

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

…and when He says He will take vengeance on them do not know Him and do not obey Him?...

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

How can He state it more plainly?

I explained Rom 9:17-18 earlier as well… I do not argue with you that these verses say what they say but you are misapplying them and taking them out of context to try to support your doctrine… it is not working.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Calvinist will generally take verse 23 out of context to try to prove an unscriptural point that it somehow references unconditional election, however, the preparation here is not referring to individuals for eternal life… it is referring to preparation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. If you will read all the scripture in context you will clearly learn this. This passage is showing us how God tolerated the sins of the Jewish people, and Gentiles, waiting for many of them to be saved. He could have destroyed the nation anytime He wanted to, but He waited because their race was essential to His plan of saving the world.

Now… this passage clearly refutes your doctrine because God was “longsuffering” and He waited for many of the Jews, and Gentiles, to accept Christ. There would be no reason for God to suffer and wait for them if He had already elected them individually. He could have easily made the choice for them and not waited and suffered their sins, but He did not because He wanted it to be their choice and free will. You have actually referenced passages that instead of supporting your false doctrine, verifies your doctrine is in fact false.



By now I hope you see that there is strong irrefutable evidence that your doctrines of unconditional election is in fact man-made and an unscriptural doctrine. If this is the best Scripture you can come up with to support your doctrine then there is no doubt your doctrine has some serious problems. Regardless, it has serious problems.... your false doctrine is still false.

You should absolutely, positively, see that your doctrines are false. I hope and pray that you do and that you will make a real stand for God’s Word.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus says the LORD: "Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is, And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, 'We will not walk in it.'

Webshepherd,

Forgive me. I am coming in on this discussion late so I will address my questions to your last post and see where that leads. Instead of starting back at the very begining.

Why is it you sound alot like a calvanist right up to the point where you discuss Romans 9:22-24. Prior to this you are willing to grant GOD his sovereignty but the minute you hit Romans 9:23 you attempt to make man the sovereign one.

Romans 9:22-24 are a question being posed.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This question is answered in the remainig text. Romans 9:27-29 to be exact. If GOD was waiting for some to come to him ( a good thing for us) why would Isaiah cry out concerning Israel? As verse 9:28 says "for the Lord will carry out his sentance upon the earth full and without delay." This clearly goes against your belief that GOD was longsuffering.
Taking this text in context it most clearly supports predestination. As you can see this doctrine is both GOD-made and scriptural.

One last thing( for now) in your first post on this subject you said:

We should consider this false doctrine very close, because if indeed this false doctrine were somehow true, as I made reference to earlier, there is no doubt that it would be unnecessary to spend our time or labor to encourage the sinner to repent of his ways and turn to God. It would be fruitless to “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19ff), because it would not matter… God has unchangeably fore-ordained whatsoever comes to pass. We could actually ignore the commands of Jesus.

First, it is necessary for us to spend our time and labor sharing the Gospel! As the disciples did in the book of Acts. We are to make disciples of those that GOD has brought to himself through our sharing the gospel ,as GOD has commanded us to do, by baptizing them in 3 names and teaching them to go forth and share the gospel as the disciples did. Not encouraging sinners to repent and turn to GOD. We have no bearing on who turns to GOD. GOD only has that power. Staying true to the sovereignty of GOD and not of man.

Second, staying true to the calvanist doctrine it is not possible for us ( the chosen)to ultimatly ignore the command of Jesus. This would make GOD very impotent and no man is capable of this no matter how hard they try or how full of themself they are.

I hope this clears up somethings for you.Although I'm sure this will bring up more questions for you. I look forward to your replay.

I by no means post this reply to be mean spirited. My only goal is to flush out weak gospel understanding and bring to light the True Gospel of Christ so that GOD maybe Glorified and His Kingdom here on earth may be furthered.

May GOD be Glorified,
Greg