Hi Greg...

Why not start at the beginning? If you are a Calvinist, then you should consider all that is written that so clearly disputes the false doctrine of Calvinism.

There is not the first sentence that I've written that would imply I am a Calvinist. In fact all of my comments are in agreement with the Bible and clearly prove I am a Christian.

Understanding and explaining the context of Romans 9:23 in no way takes away the fact that I fully understand God is sovereign.

Sounds like you may be doing the typical Calvinist dance and using a play on words. Keep it all in context and it is very clear.

Calvinist will generally take verse 23 out of context to try to prove an unScriptural point that it somehow references unconditional election, however, the preparation here is not referring to individuals for eternal life… it is referring to preparation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. If you will read all the scripture in context you will clearly learn this. This passage is showing us how God tolerated the sins of the Jewish people, and Gentiles, waiting for many of them to be saved. He could have destroyed the nation anytime He wanted to, but He waited because their race was essential to His plan of saving the world.

Now… this passage clearly refutes your doctrine because God is “longsuffering”, and He waited for many of the Jews, and Gentiles, to accept Christ. There would be no reason for God to suffer and wait for them if He had already elected them individually. DING! DING! DING! DING! HELLO? He could have easily made the choice for them and not waited and suffered their sins, but He did not because He wanted it to be their choice and free will. This no doubt verifies your doctrine is in fact false.

I'm surprised you would attempt to hold to one passage to support predestination, given the host of other passages that clearly dispute it and would cause the Bible to be in contradiction if it did in fact somehow support predestination. Brother Haley does a wonderful job of breaking this down for easy understanding... much better than I can do myself.

Romans 9:22 -- Paul begins a rather lengthy question in this verse which appears to be hypothetical but is really rhetorical. He is describing the condition of the relationship between man and God as it actually exists. How can we be sure that he is not talking about Calvinism ... that God will save certain persons and **** other certain persons?

Does God really make the homosexual the way he is and then promise to destroy him? The key to finding an answer to this is in Rom. 9:24 -- "us whom he also called." Those who fit the description of being called will be blessed. Those who turn the call down will be condemned. It is not the case that God condemns those who cannot help what they do. All that any responsible person does is done by his or her own choice (see 2 Tim. 2:20-21).

God "endured" a great deal from mankind. He did so with "much longsuffering," which means He was "slow in avenging wrongs." If God created some men just to destroy them because they could only be sinful, why would He wait to do so? What kind of despot do these objectors think Jehovah is? Man, who has sinned against God, has "outfitted himself" unto destruction (this word does not describe annihilation). He is a self-made "vessel," a negative metaphor describing "an assistant in accomplishing an evil deed."

Romans 9:23 -- On the other hand, there are those to whom God will give abundant blessings Paul now states. These have been "afore-prepared." This verb is found only here and in Eph. 2:10, which speaks of "good works" which have been prepared to be done or fulfilled by faithful followers of Christ. It would seem, then, that these "good works" are accomplished by "good children," those who have "fitted themselves" to do them. These have met the conditions of election set forth by God in order to do these "good works" acceptably.

Romans 9:24 -- From what two groups do "the called" come? Jew and Gentile! Therefore, Paul has proved what he set out to in Rom. 1:17 -- that all can be saved and made righteous through the gospel, God's power to save (Rom. 1:16)! This was the wisdom even from the Old Testament. "Happy is the man that feareth alway; but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief" (Prov. 28:14). From the prophets we learn, "let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isa. 55:7).

Romans 9:25-27 -- The conclusion to all of these arguments is seen in Rom. 9:25-29. Paul reminds them that even the Old Testament prophets had spiritual Israel in mind (see Gal. 3:7-9,29). So now Jew and Gentile alike can be known by God as "my people; my beloved sons and daughters." In the quote from Isaiah (Rom. 9:27) a special term, remnant (found throughout the Old Testament), is used. In the Old Testament it re-ferred to faithful Jews who held on to God. In this context it refers to the Jew (first) who becomes a Christian and then to all Gentiles who become children of God.

Romans 9:28 -- What is this "calling" (Rom. 9:24-26)? It is the "bidding to come before the Majesty" that is issued through the gospel. In Rom. 9:28 it is equated with God's "executing His word upon the earth." It is "finished completely" with nothing left to follow. God will not administer another plan nor one different from that which He has already set forth. Election unto salvation for a certain kind of person will stand forever. Thus, only those who will comply with what the gospel teaches will enjoy eternal life, the gift that God has promised.

Romans 9:29 -- Paul now reminds us of the point he has been affirming throughout Rom. 8 and into this present chapter. The "Lord of Sabaoth" is the signature of God's sovereignty. He is the Master of the armies of Israel. He "left us a seed," which means that He "left behind" this "seed" called the remnant. This is what is known in Greek as a second class conditional phrase which stands as yet unfulfilled. When these words were spoken by Isaiah, the remnant was yet to be realized and filled up as God's seed. Here then we see the connection between the doctrine of the Book of Romans and that of Galatians. Let us remember who "the seed of Abraham" really are: the saved, Christians, the church, spiritual Israel (Gal. 3:7,28-29; 6:16). If it had not been for God's plan and choice, if God had to depend upon national Israel, salvation would not have been possible for all men. God, seeing the end from the beginning, made arrangements for his will to come through and for the "remnant."


To somehow twist this passage around and claim God is NOT longsuffering is deception at it's best... one reason why only a "remnant" will be saved. Those ravenous wolves will deceive many... (See Matthew 7:13-15)

BTW: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


You gotta be kidding me... We should do as the disciples did, but not encourage sinners to repent? If we do that somehow relieves God of His sovereignty? :holycow:

If we should do as the apostles did in Acts then we should encourage sinners to repent:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Apparently I already had all things cleared up pretty well. You throwing comments and words around with no Scriptural support won't work here.

If you want to stay true to the Calvinist doctrine, it will be to your own destruction. As for me and my family, we will stay true to the doctrine of Christ.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

To TheWordIsOne: I moved your two posts to this thread since they were off topic to the original post here in this thread. Your post are more appropriate for interpretation. Let's make sure we keep our posts on topic... many thanks! If you have something that directly relates whether "Does God unchangeably ordain everything that comes to pass?"... please feel free to post it here.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that WHO SO EVER believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn.3:16. This popular scriptural passage has some vivid truth that, God does not unchangeably ordain everything that come to pass.

We are made new creatures when come into Christ through baptism in water-2Cor.5:17

In his vine yard.

gordon.annan

Also notice that is says "should" not parish. This means that it is not determined but the path has been given by the will of God but regarding us, we SHOULD be saved but it is not for sure UNLESS we are in Christ.

What God did before we were aware to to speak His Word. What he spoke included all of the blessings and all of the curses possible (as contained in scripture) for us. What we are receiving here and now is a mixture of blessings and cursings.

In accord with all of what God has already said and how we respond to what He has said we will be blessed more or cursed more.

When we are cursed it is because we choose to be cursed (by our response to the curses promised). Such curses may cause the removal of blessings that we have already received.

We all started out with certain blessings from God when were born naturally to our natural mothers. By moving in the right direction [toward God] we can receive more blessings.

God does not change and His Word does not change, but our response to His Word will change according to blessings or cursings that we already have and according to how our whole beling responds to that Word. Salvation is not set in concrete, but rather it is one of those blessings God has for those that respond to His Word continuously in the manner that He desires.

Some blessings we received before we were even able to make any decisions. This is most certainly unwarrented or unearned favor from God. Such grace continues to be given.

We are unable to respond to God as He would desire without help. He made available to us all of the help that is needed to do all that He would have us to do. All we have to do is ask:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

Hi Bottom_Rung...

How did you form this opinion? Are there specific Scriptures you used that you could provide? Generally we like to have text proof.

Thanks!

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Hi Bottom_Rung,
There are some confusing things in your post. According to what you have said, it seems that you are going beyond what God teaches us, which is that the rain falls on the good and bad. It is how we handle these issues and respond to what God commands of us in His Word that influences our soul, but not necessarily the things in our life.


Matthew 5:44-46
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[a] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isa 55:11

How much of His written Word of which we are aware did God speak after we were born either naturally or 'born again'?

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:37

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians." Exo 18:10

Even Korah and all of the men that appertained to him were blessed by God and brought safely out of Egypt. Then as a result of their rebellion the earth swallowed them up. This was their curse. This was the removal of their blessing.

"And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation." Numbers 16:32-33


"But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee." I Chron 29:14

"For I am the LORD, I change not..." Mal 3:6

"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isa 40:8

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." I Peter 1:9

Apparently, we are not completely and finally saved until faith comes to an end. Since we are stilll living by faith that is certainly not yet!

First we must confess and believe in the manner prescribed:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9

If we truly believe "in our heart" will we not always do the following in order to obey Him?

"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17

"Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice." Phil 4:4

"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matt 19:25-26

See post #35

Methinks perhaps you are speaking sarcastically, nevertheless...

Jesus who never sinned said this:

"...there is none good but one, that is, God..." Matt 19:17

The fact is that all good things in anyone or in anyone actions are of God. Unfortunately, we still have an "old man" alive and well in us struggling for dominance. This old man wins battles sometimes because we make the wrong choice (for ourself instead of for God).

"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:21

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

"For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2

Who but Jesus has reached the point of offending "not in word"?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

The original question is "Does God unchangeably ordain everything that comes to pass?"

You have not provided any Scripture or reasoning that sheds any light on this question.

What I also see in post #35 is quite a bit of Scripture that is taken out of context immeasurably.

You may wish to go back to the first few original posts and see the supporting Scripture for why God DOES NOT unchangeably ordain everything that comes to pass and study those passages closer. If by some far stretched reasoning your provided Scripture somehow supported God unchangeably ordaining everything that comes to pass, then we would have a vast contradiction in the Scriptures with the passages I presented that clearly prove He DOES NOT. Let's start there and not jump around the Bible and take passages out of context to try to prove our uninspired thinking.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Let me explain where I am coming from. First, my simple answer to your original question as cited again above is, No. What I do believe is that God who before He had actually created man knew every possible response any man could make to any given set of conditions. Knowing all of these possible responses by man, God created His own response to any given to any given reaction or set of reactions on man's part. This is what was preordained. For example He had already decided that the "wages of sin" would be death before He had even created man. He had also decided how the sin could be removed so that a person could have eternal Life.

Then God created man with the ability to choose either God's Way or man's own way. The decision was man's alone. Each time a man makes a decision, he causes his own reward or punishment (blessing or cursing from God) as established in God's mind and/or Word before the man's creation.

If Mark 16:20 taught plainly exactly what you say it does, then all of us here on this forum would agree with each other. Since we do not, then the teaching is apparently not so plain.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part." I Cor 13:9

It is our knowledge of the Word of God that is "in part", not the Word of God itself.

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:10

Having the Bible in our hand does not make our knowledge perfect. If it did then every Bible owner would have perfect knowledge.

Faith was delivered, but we must also increase our faith, going from faith to faith: {"...gospel of Christ... For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:16-17}

If we are just we live by faith, but what we are looking for, what we are expecting will arrive at the "end of our faith" [I Peter 1:7-9]. Then we will no longer live by faith, but by knowledge. We will no longer see a glass darkly, but clearly.

Where are your scripures which show that this "providential care" exists and that it is the only way that God is working today?

Undoubtedly!

This response actually contradicts much of what you have already written.

I agree with man's free choice, but some things have happened that never entered into God's mind.

Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Jeremiah 19:4,5 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind--



2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Complete, Completion, Completely

A. Verbs.
1. epiteleo (G2005), "to complete": see ACCOMPLISH, No. 4.
2. exartizo (G1822), "to fit out" (ek, "out," intensive, artos, "a joint"; or from artios, perfect, lit., "exactly right"), is said of the equipment of the man of God, 2Ti_3:17, "furnished completely" (KJV, "throughly furnished"); elsewhere in Act_21:5, "accomplished. Cf. B. See FURNISH.
3. sunteleo (G4931), "to end together, bring quite to an end" (sun, "together," intensive, telos, "an end"), is said (a) of the "completion" of a period of days, Luk_4:2; Act_21:27; (b) of "completing" something; some mss. have it in Mat_7:28, of the Lord, in ending His discourse (the best mss. have teleo, "to finish"); of God, in finishing a work, Rom_9:28, in making a new covenant, Heb_8:8, marg., "accomplish"; of the fulfillment of things foretold, Mar_13:4; of the Devil's temptation of the Lord, Luk_4:13. See END, FINISH, FULFILL, MAKE.
4. pleroo (G4137), "to fill" (in the passive voice, "to be made full"), is translated "complete" in the KJV of Col_2:10 (RV, "made full"; cf. Col_2:9). See ACCOMPLISH.
5. plerophoreo (G4135), "to be fully assured," is translated "complete" in Col_4:12. See ASSURED, B, No. 2.
B. Adjective.
artios (G739), "fitted, complete" (from artos, "a limb, joint"), is used in 2Ti_3:17, RV, "complete," KJV, "perfect. See PERFECT.
C. Noun.
apartismos (G535) is rendered "complete" in Luk_14:28, RV.


Perfect, Perfectly

A. Adjectives.
1. teleios (G5049) signifies "having reached its end" (telos), "finished, complete perfect." It is used (I) of persons, (a) primarily of physical development, then, with ethical import, "fully grown, mature," 1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20 ("men"; marg., "of full age"); Eph_4:13; Phi_3:15; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; in Heb_5:14, RV, "fullgrown" (marg., "perfect"), KJV, "of full age" (marg., "perfect"); (b) "complete," conveying the idea of goodness without necessary reference to maturity or what is expressed under (a) Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21; Jam_1:4 (2nd part); Jam_3:2. It is used thus of God in Mat_5:48; (II), of "things, complete, perfect," Rom_12:2; 1Co_13:10 (referring to the complete revelation of God's will and ways, whether in the completed Scriptures or in the hereafter); Jam_1:4 (of the work of patience); Jam_1:25; 1Jo_4:18.
2. teleioteros (G5046*), the comparative degree of No. 1, is used in Heb_9:11, of the very presence of God.
3. artios (G739) is translated "perfect" in 2Ti_3:17 : see COMPLETE, B.
B. Verbs.
1. teleioo (G5048), "to bring to an end by completing or perfecting," is used (I) of "accomplishing" (see FINISH, FULFILL); (II), of "bringing to completeness," (a) of persons: of Christ's assured completion of His earthly course, in the accomplishment of the Father's will, the successive stages culminating in His death, Luk_13:32; Heb_2:10, to make Him "perfect," legally and officially, for all that He would be to His people on the ground of His sacrifice; cf. Heb_5:9; Heb_7:28, RV, "perfected" (KJV, "consecrated"); of His saints, Joh_17:23, RV, "perfected" (KJV, "made perfect"); Phi_3:12; Heb_10:14; Heb_11:40 (of resurrection glory); Heb_12:23 (of the departed saints); 1Jo_4:18, of former priests (negatively), Heb_9:9; similarly of Israelites under the Aaronic priesthood, Heb_10:1; (b) of things, Heb_7:19 (of the ineffectiveness of the Law); Jam_2:22 (of faith made "perfect" by works); 1Jo_2:5, of the love of God operating through him who keeps His word; 1Jo_4:12, of the love of God in the case of those who love one another; 1Jo_4:17, of the love of God as "made perfect with" (RV) those who abide in God, giving them to be possessed of the very character of God, by reason of which "as He is, even so are they in this world."
2. epiteleo (G2005), "to bring through to the end" (epi, intensive, in the sense of "fully," and teleo, "to complete"), is used in the middle voice in Gal_3:3, "are ye (now) perfected," continuous present tense, indicating a process, lit., "are ye now perfecting yourselves"; in 2Co_7:1, "perfecting (holiness)"; in Phi_1:6, RV, "will perfect (it)," KJV, "will perform." see ACCOMPLISH, No. 4.
3. katartizo (G2675), "to render fit, complete" (artios), "is used of mending nets, Mat_4:21; Mar_1:19, and is translated 'restore' in Gal_6:1. It does not necessarily imply, however, that that to which it is applied has been damaged, though it may do so, as in these passages; it signifies, rather, right ordering and arrangement, Heb_11:3, 'framed;' it points out the path of progress, as in Mat_21:16; Luk_6:40; cf. 2Co_13:9; Eph_4:12, where corresponding nouns occur. It indicates the close relationship between character and destiny, Rom_9:22, 'fitted.' It expresses the pastor's desire for the flock, in prayer, Heb_13:21, and in exhortation, 1Co_1:10, RV, 'perfected' (KJV, 'perfectly joined'); 2Co_13:11, as well as his conviction of God's purpose for them, 1Pe_5:10. It is used of the Incarnation of the Word in Heb_10:5, 'prepare,' quoted from Psa_40:6 (Sept.), where it is apparently intended to describe the unique creative act involved in the Virgin Birth, Luk_1:35. In 1Th_3:10 it means to supply what is necessary, as the succeeding words show."* see FIT, B, No. 3.
* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 101.
Note: Cf. exartizo, rendered "furnished completely," in 2Ti_3:17, RV; see ACCOMPLISH, No. 1.
C. Adverbs.
1. akribos (G199), accurately, is translated "perfectly" in 1Th_5:2, where it suggests that Paul and his companions were careful ministers of the Word. See ACCURATELY, and see Note (2) below.
2. akribesteron (G197), the comparative degree of No. 1, Act_18:26; Act_23:15 : see CAREFULLY, EXACTLY.
3. teleios (G5049), "perfectly," is so translated in 1Pe_1:13, RV (KJV, "to the end"), of setting one's hope on coming grace. See END.
Notes: (1) In Rev_3:2, KJV, pleroo, "to fulfill," is translated "perfect" (RV, "fulfilled"). (2) For the adverb akribos in Luk_1:3, KJV, see ACCURATELY; in Act_24:22, KJV, see EXACT. (3) For the noun akribeia in Act_22:3, see MANNER.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Very well shown brother Sonnie. God's Word is clear on this.