Predestination is the core of Calvin's 5 points doctrine, all of which he careful crafted word by word, sentence by sentence, point by point, each segment building to the next; as an interwoven integrated whole that appears to be formidably formed and it logic impenetrable - solidly crafted and built to withstand any assault and weather any storm. But when exposed to the raw truth of the Bible, we can see that it is a house of cards, and just as the removal of a single card causes the whole stack to fall - where if one of John Calvin's smallest stones in its 5 Point fortress is broken the whole structure comes tumbling down.

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your brother in Christ,

Charles Burgess
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Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ... Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

The doctrine of Calvinism is wrong and man-made. Just consider Jeremiah 6,16:
Thus says the Lord:
"Stand in the ways and see, And ask for the old paths, where the good way is,
And walk in it; Then you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it."
This clearly says that man can choose for himself. This does not undermine God Almighty. He just chooses that man has free-will. He can and does whatever he wants but he chooses to let man do what they want. After they die they will be punished or rewarded for their actions. You are right that no actions will get anyone to heaven. It is by grace only. God lets people choose. Why else did Adam and Eve eat the fruit. I don't think it is in the interest of God that mankind is sinful right? He didn't want that to happen but since there's freewill Eve chose to eat the fruit. This doesn't make God any smaller. He is still God Almighty. He can do what he wants. This is supported by a myriad of scriptures.
Your brother in Christ

Hello Dennis I apologize that it has taken so long to get to this. I have been busy and to be honest it just slipped my mind that there were posts that needed to be approved.

Calvinism is indeed wrong. All five points are anti-Biblical. I cannot say strongly enough that ALL FIVE points in Calvin's TULIP are FALSE. It seems that most of the denominations adhere to at least one if not all of Calvin's TULIP. The TULIP is Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints.

I think as to Grace and actions perhaps people talk past each other. God's grace has appeared to all men. Allowing us to have the choice to come to God. We come to God based on obedience.

Now all the obedience in the world couldn't justify men in the sight of God. He had to send the Son to be the propitiation for our sins. That doesn't remove the required obedience. With that obedience we should carry with us the same attitude that Christ demanded His apostles have.

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

Speaking of "old paths", here is a good link with lots of good info on Calvinism.
http://www.oldpaths.com/Archive/Feenstra/C/A/1931/


Bill

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Am I the only one that can't access the oldpaths link?

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

Lee,

The site must be down; I cannot access it today. It appears to try and connect and then drops. Maybe they are doing some maintenance. The link that I gave you goes directly to the "TULIP".

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Thanks Bill!

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

Total Depravity:

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
KJV


Unconditional Election:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV




Limited Atonement:

Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
KJV

Irresistible Grace:

Hebrews 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
KJV

Perseverance of the Saints:

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
KJV

Correct

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Well said! Agreed!

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preacher@hydeparkcoc.org

Lee,
The link is back up. Must have been down for maintenance or something.

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:5 (U-NASB)

Thanks brother!

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1 Peter 5:6-7: Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. -ESV

Just a short thought on predestination:
I personally believe that the scripture has to be "rightly divided", in other words, I look not for contradictions but harmony.
Predestination exist.
Choice exist as well.
God knows what we will do before we do it. Why hate Esau? Probably because he knew the choices Esau would make.
On the other hand, The Lord hardened Pharaohs' heart to show his power, speaking of which, I will not propose to know the mind of God concerning this subject, only that he is God, and can and will do exactly as he pleases.
By the way: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. acts 4:12
acts 2:38,39 Heb1: 5-9 Mark 12:19

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"And let all the angels of God worship him." Heb 1:6

Whatever ideas the mind of man has conceived re: predestination, the scriptures teach the truth. Rom. 8:28 is helpful, especially when seen in light of Eph. 3:10-11. The same TRUTH which affected Pharoah's heart, also affected Lydia's heart. An illustration: The same sun in the sky which melts butter also hardens clay.

I find some agreement in what you are saying but I suspect we are using "predestination" in different ways. All of the following use "predestination":

• Acts 4:28
• Romans 8:29-30
• 1 Corinthians 2:7
• Ephesians 1:5
• Ephesians 1:11

Yet, if you notice, predestination is not used in these verse as some commonly misapply it today. They do not speak to a "Calvinistic" view of God doing something to a person regardless of what they think, know or want. Predestination is used in the sense of God saying that the blessings one will receive and the gifts that will be given and the salvation that will be afforded has been "predestined" for those who choose through faith and obedience to lay claim to them.

Let me give you an example using Romans 8:29-30. Those who choose to make Christ Lord of their life will receive the blessings that God long ago "predestined" to be blessings when one accepts Christ. Salvation, access to the father, forgiveness of sins and more have all been "predetermined" or predestined as blessings that would come to those who are Christian.

Predestination speaks to what God "will do" not what man "has to do". It is predestined that the blood of Christ will forgiven my youngest son when he is ready and able to put on Christ through baptism. My son is not "predestined" to be saved (he must freely choose to do so), the "gifts/blessings/results" that come by way of being saved are predestined. That is, they have been predetermined by God.

It is predestined that those who Choose Christ choose everlasting life (John 3:16).

Kindly,
Don

Good. And all of it according to Eph. 3:10-11, c.f. Jer. 29:11, 2 Tim. 1:9-10

Oh, those are some good verses as well!