I was asked to start a thread here.

I will explain what my church (and i) believe when it comes to baptism.

First. Only believers may be baptised not children. When i came to faith i had to got through and nurture class and interview before i could be put forward for baptism. This is to try and disern whether i was genuine or not. After that we go through baptism classes which explain in great detail what baptism is and the theology and reasoning for it.

What we are taught is this. Baptism is obedience to God. We are taught that because Christ told us to do it we have to do it. Its a act of obedience and a symbolism of our repentance and turning from sin. Not to be baptised would be disobedient and therefore sin.

However we do not believe baptism is part of salvation....salvation is achieved only by Christs blood on the cross and the grace of God. Baptism is evidence that we are true and sincere and Jesus is Lord of our lifes. We dont believe baptism has any power its symbolic. We believe that those who die after accepting Christ but before being baptised would goto heaven because repentance is what God seeks from us not baptism.

Thats about it. Im quite new to it all so the above might not be fully accurate if anyone has any questions feel free to post .

Quick reminded the above might not be what you believe that is fine! however remember - walk in love.:t:

This is more of a discussion about baptism than it is denominationalism, therefore I am moving it to the Baptized Into Christ forum.

While we walk in love we must also rightly divide the word...

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I think where the problem lies is that what you are referencing has been taught by quite a number of religious people for a number of years. It's been taught long enough and by so many that people come to accept it in general as the truth. However, there is absolutely no evidence in the Bible for it, and even the Baptist have not always taught this. Sure, people will take a few passages and wrestle with them to get them to say what they want, but in the end, if those passages meant what they thought, we would have mounds of contradictions in the Bible... which is not possible... that is if we truly believe the Bible.

Let's simply roll back the time to the days of Jesus and the apostles and do what they taught. Then we will all be speaking the same things as Paul urges...

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

In Matthew's account of the Great Commission... when Jesus arose from the grave, He commanded the apostles to go and make disciples...

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

How does Jesus explain that disciples are made? By "baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" and by "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you".

What are disciples?

Acts 11:26 and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


Mark also gave an account of the Great Commission... echoing what Matthew wrote...

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

Clearly those who "believeth" and are "baptized" will be saved. If you do not believe, you have no reason to be baptized. However, believing alone does not constitute salvation, as Jesus so stated.

Luke gave an account of the Great Commission as well...

Luke 24:45-47 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures; and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Notice Jesus said "repentance and remission of sins" should be preached "beginning from Jerusalem."

Take all three accounts of Jesus commissioning the apostles to go and preach the gospel and make disciples and look at exactly what the apostles did. On the day of Pentecost, "from Jerusalem", the apostles began preaching the gospel. If we look at Acts chapter 2, we learn that Peter preached the gospel and he preached "repentance and remission of sins", which again, is exactly what Jesus commanded. We will look at the scripture in a moment.

Now let's summarize thus far... this all harmonizes well. Jesus has commanded the apostles to go and make disciples by teaching and baptizing. He has told them to start in Jerusalem and preach repentance and remission of sins... and He said that whoever believed and is baptized would be saved.

Looking back at what Peter preached on that day of Pentecost in Jerusalem... he clearly preached the gospel, repentance and remission of sins. But what exactly was it that he said about remission of sins? Let's look at how Peter preached "repentance and remission of sins", which Jesus instructed...

Acts 2:36-38 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It's very clear how Peter preached "repentance and remission of sins". When they asked "...what shall we do?" Peter instructed them to "Repent, and be baptized" .... but why be baptized? "for the remission of sins".

How were those people added to the church? How did they respond so that they could be added?

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They believed and were baptized, therefore they were saved and added to the church....

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Now let's consider what the church is... what does it mean to be added to the church? What is the church?

The word "church" is taken from the Greek "ecclesia", which means "called out". The "called out" or the "saved" make up the "church". We are called out of the world, called out of darkness...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The church is the body of saved believers... the body of Christ...

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

His body is the church and it includes all those who are saved. So how do we get in the church... how do we get "in Christ"?

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

"...we are all baptized into one body..."

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

According to the Bible, the only way to get "into Christ" (to get into the church where the saved are) is to be "baptized into Christ".

Yes, the blood of Christ is what saves us, not the water... however the water is the means by which we come in contact with the blood.

Consider that every example of salvation from the death, burial and resurrection of Christ includes baptism.

Remember too that Jude warned of false teachers who would turn the grace of God into lasciviousness thus making a mockery of moral standards and accountability…

Jude 1:3-4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:17-18 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Ironically they justify their departures from Christ’s teaching by appealing to the nature of God. Those who might take exception are usually said to be ignorant or narrow-minded (this would include me and the "few" that Jesus mentions in Matthew 7:13-14). We are usually dismissed as small-minded, loveless souls unable to grasp the goodness of God. Mockery is one of the favorite tools of false teachers... because what they wish to promote cannot be sustained on the basis of reasoned evidence, they must resort to a lower means of persuasion. It is clearly an admission that their man-made doctrines lack an accurate scriptural basis.

It is also apparently common for false teachers to use broad religious themes such as love, forgiveness, and grace, to hide the fact that there is no scriptural support for what they promote. Although false teachers claim to be led the Holy Spirit, Jude points to their divisive conduct as evidence to the contrary…

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Their strategy is to divide and conquer the church by creating confusion over scriptural values such as grace and obedience. Near the end of Jude’s letter, he instructs his readers (which includes all Christians) to pray in the Spirit. This is his way of reminding Christians that we are the ones in fellowship with God, rather than the cynics who ridicule our faith. I know I must continue to trust God, live a holy life, and refuse to be discouraged by religious charlatans. Satan has mastered the art of psychological warfare, but Christians can defeat discouragement by remembering Jesus’ and the apostles’ teachings. There will always be mockers who will attempt to dishearten the faithful by sneering at sound doctrine. I refuse to let an erudite, or mockery of men, diminish my will to stand firm against false doctrines. I would encourage you and others to do the same.

It is truth that sets us free. Honest and careful study of God’s Word liberates us not only from sin, but also from falsehoods taught by popular preachers who deal in misrepresentation and emotional manipulation. God knew these types of false teachers would be prevalent, and He inspired Jude to write his letter warning us of them. I praise God for all the inspired writers.

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I really do not see what you are trying to put accross. Ive read that twice.

Now to me its quite simple. Its Jesus death on the cross that saved us - its that that was prophecyed and its that that the new testament attests.

Baptism is obedience that i think we both agree on. But its the cross we must focus on - there is the grace and evidence of the love of God.

When we preach something other than the cross and Jesus death and add works to it thus stating that Jesus death was not enough is that not false teaching?.

Hmmm... ... are you saying that baptism is a work of our own merit?

I'm a little confused as to why we would ignore the words of Jesus? He said we must be baptized to be saved... how is it that this eliminates His death or the cross?

Do you have any scriptural support for your opinions?

__________________
In Christ,
brother Sonnie

Will, I am so glad that you are eager to discuss what God says a person must do to be saved, and may we all do so in love for one another, as has been done thus far.

Your statement about infants having no need to be baptized is in agreement with God's Word (Matthew 18:3; 19:14; Ezekiel 18:20; 2 Samuel 12:23; etc.). The teaching that infants are sinful and need to be baptized is part of a man-made doctrine called Calvinism. However, most of your other statements seem to be evidence of John Calvin's influence in what you have been taught, and this is contradictory to the Bible. Obviously, the name of this forum implies that we are interested in what the Bible says, not the doctrines that men such as John Calvin taught. With that being said, there is an obvious void of Scripture references in every one of your posts; and with all due repect, you seem to be merely repeating what you have been taught by men.

Will, I have noticed several inconsistencies in what you have stated. In order to clarify your beliefs for us all, I would like to bring these up now and give you a chance to explain your statements. I also wonder if you have considered the ramifications of some of your statements, and I plan to mention my thoughts on this also.

1. You stated that "I have read your what must i do to be saved topic. That is what my church teaches and every baptist church ive been to in scotland." Will, your subsequent statements in this forum could not contradict what is written in that "What Must I Do To Be Saved" section any more than they do! This makes me wonder if you yourself are really sure about what you believe. Could it be that you are still not sure what is necessary for salvation? If that is the case, it would explain the inconsistencies found in your posts. Perhaps you read that "What Must I Do To Be Saved" section and initially agreed with the points because they were thoroughly backed up by the Word; but in later posts you seemed to revert back to your Baptist teaching, forgetting everything on which you had previously agreed as being correct! Both of these teachings cannot be true because they are totally contradictory to one another. The question is, which does the Bible support? Those who posted in that section of the forum have provided ample Biblical verses to explain what the Bible teaches, and I respectfully request that you supply verses to back up what you believe.

2. You stated that "We are taught that because Christ told us to do it we have to do it." Will, you are absolutely right! Christ said that we HAVE to be baptized. Your statement clearly implies that baptism is an essential command that must be obeyed. I might add that He said we HAVE to do it in the context of salvation! (Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19). If this command of God is optional, please tell us what other commands of God are optional, and provide Scripture references.

3. You stated that "Not to be baptised would be disobedient and therefore sin." Will, I cannot agree with you more! With that said, can those who do not obey God and do not do His will go to heaven? I will let Jesus answer that question: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). Notice also that "...he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9). Obviously it is God's will for us to obey His command to be baptized, so how could anyone who is not baptized not be in violation of these two aforementioned verses?

4. You stated that "However we do not believe baptism is part of salvation." Will, here is where it is crystal clear that your denominational, Calvinistic, Baptist teaching obviously overrides your ability to reason from the Scriptures! You come right out and say, "However we do not believe"... In other words, "I know the Bible says X; however, we believe Y." For a more explicit example, God says, "baptism does also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21); however "we" believe that "baptism does NOT also now save us." God says, "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16); however "we" believe that "he who believes and is NOT baptized shall be saved." God says, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27); however, "we" believe that "as many of you as have NOT been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." God says, "Repent, and be baptized...for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38); however, "we" believe that one should "repent and be baptized, NOT for the remission of sins." I could go on with more examples, but I think you get the point.

5. You stated that "Salvation is achieved only by Christs blood on the cross and the grace of God." Will, here is one statement of which I would really like you to look at the ramifications. If this statement is true, then God has no conditions that any person must meet to be saved, and therefore the entire human population is going to heaven! Christ died on the cross for ALL men (Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:1, 2), and our gracious God desires that ALL men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4); therefore if all that is necessary for our salvation is Christ's death and God's grace, then all the world will be saved! You mentioned nothing about us having a part in our own salvation, and if we as individuals had no part in our salvation, then without question all people would be saved. However, Jesus said that only a small minority are going to be saved (Matthew 7:13, 14); and in that same chapter He said that this small number would be the ones who actually do His will (Matthew 7:21-23; cf. Hebrews 5:9). Do I believe that Christ's death on the cross and the shedding of His blood is of paramount importance? Absolutely! Do I believe that we can be saved without Christ's blood or God's grace? Absolutely not! But we must look at everything the Bible says is involved in our salvation, not just one or two aspects of it (2 Timothy 2:15).

6. You stated that "We dont believe baptism has any power its symbolic." Will, here is another one of those "We don't believe" statements! Please list Scriptures which prove this point, while taking into consideration the context of the verses and the remainder of the Bible. You say that "repentance is what God seeks from us not baptism." What "power" is there in the act of repentance, other than the fact that God commands it? The same is true for baptism.. We are merely doing what God said to do to be saved. That is where the power lies. When Naaman was healed of leprosy by dipping seven times in the Jordan (2 Kings 5), what "power" was there in the water to cleanse him? It was the "power" of doing what God told him to do to be cleansed! When they marched around the walls of Jericho, what power was in those trumpets that made the walls fall down? The power was in the fact that they did what God told them to do to get the gift of Jericho! (Joshua 6:2ff) The power of baptism is in the fact that we are doing what God told us to do to wash our sins away! (Acts 22:16) The blood of Christ is what washes away our sins (Revelation 1:5), but we must do something to contact the blood, or else all people would be saved. When we are baptized into the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5), we contact His blood that was shed in His death (John 19:33, 34). Please notice the following:

- If a person’s sins are washed away at the point in time when he contacts the blood of Christ (Rev. 1:5), and a person’s sins are washed away when he is baptized (Acts 22:16), then he must come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism!

- If a person’s sins are remitted at the point in time when he contacts the blood of Christ (Matthew 26:28), and a person’s sins are remitted at the point that he is baptized (Acts 2:38), then he must come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism!

- If a person’s soul is cleansed at the point in time when he contacts the blood of Christ (Revelation 7:14), and a person’s soul is cleansed when he “washed in water” (Ephesians 5:26), then he must come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism!

- If a person is sanctified at the point in time when he contacts the blood of Christ (Hebrews 13:12), and a person is sanctified when he is “washed in water” (Ephesians 5:26), then he must come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism!

- If a person is saved at the point in time when he contacts the blood of Christ (Rom. 5:9), and a person is saved when he is baptized (1 Peter 3:21), then he must come in contact with the blood of Christ at baptism!

(I have a Word document I will email to anyone who wants to read more about contacting the blood of Christ, by the way.)


Please see the next post for the rest of my reply!
Jason Hilburn

7. You stated that "We believe that those who die after accepting Christ but before being baptised would goto heaven because repentance is what God seeks from us not baptism." Will, I am sorry, but you are contradicting yourself again! In one sentence you say that "Salvation is achieved only by Christs blood on the cross and the grace of God," but now you add repentance to the equation! May I ask what made you say that "repentance is what God seeks, not baptism"? When God commands baptism in the context of salvation, can we say that God does not seek baptism from us? Is this a Biblical teaching, or a Baptist doctrine? If one infers that repentance is mandatory from a verse such as Acts 17:30, does one not also infer that baptism is mandatory from verses like 1 Peter 3:21 or Acts 2:38? Does not God teach that all men are to be baptized? (Mark 16:15, 16; Matthew 28:18-20). In fact, is not the command to be baptized found far more often in New Testament conversion accounts than any other command? (The answer is yes, by the way. The command to be baptized in conversion accounts occurs much more often than any command to believe, repent, or confess Christ. I have a chart that I can send to anyone who would like to see this). With all that being said, if the Bible says in just one verse that baptism is a part of our salvation, then is that not enough to prove that baptism is a part of our salvation? (see 1 Peter 3:21 and many others).

8. You stated that "Now to me its quite simple. Its Jesus death on the cross that saved us." Will, I am sorry, but your doctrine is contradictory. I hope this post makes you realize this, and I hope that you will clarify your position on what is necessary for salvation in future posts. You made no mention of repentance in this statement, or of any requirement on our part. If all we need to know is this statement, then all men would be saved, because Christ died for all men.

9. You stated that "When we preach something other than the cross and Jesus death and add works to it thus stating that Jesus death was not enough is that not false teaching?" Will, if preaching that there is more involved in our salvation than just the cross and the death of Jesus makes a person a false teacher, then Jesus, Peter, Philip, and Paul are all false teachers. We already noticed what Jesus said (Matthew 7:21-23). Notice what Peter said: "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34, 35). Notice that when Philip preached Jesus, the first response of the Ethiopian was to be baptized in water: "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" (Acts 8:35, 36). If one is preaching Jesus today, the penitent hearer should be looking for water, just as the Ethiopian was! Notice that Paul said that we are free from sin after we obey God: "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness" (Romans 6:17, 18). There are many more passages that I could have listed here, and I will be glad to do so in a later post if you so desire.

10. In one post you stated that "That person is saved by grace alone and nothing more." Will, again, if we are "saved by grace alone and nothing more," then that excludes our personal faith, our repentance, and our obedience to God! Are these things not also necessary for our salvation? (Hebrews 11:6; Acts 17:30; Hebrews 5:9, etc.) If these are not necessary for salvation, please explain why from God's Word, and also give an explanation as to what these three aforementioned Scriptures mean.

11. You stated that "I believe that the Holy Spirit will do as Jesus taught and lead us into truth." Will, to whom was this promise made? (see John 15:27) Your statement comes from John 16:13: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13). Does the Holy Spirit directly show you things to come in the future? Jesus also said to these same people, "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26). What has Christ ever personally said to you? Jesus also told these same people, "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matthew 10:19, 20; cf. Matthew 10:1, 5). Does the Holy Spirit miraculously tell you what to say when people question your faith, or could it be that all these verses directly apply to Jesus' twelve disciples in the first century? We must keep verses in context, because whatsoever is out of context is a pretext, and we must "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).


Will, I hope this has been a beneficial post, and I hope you will realize that this is being posted out of love.

Jason Hilburn

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (1 Peter 4:11).

willb, from what I can gather from the information you’ve given your church teaches that you don’t have to be baptized to be saved. Where I’m a bit fuzzy is where you stated that, “Baptism is obedience to God. We are taught that because Christ told us to do it we have to do it.”

Later you state, “We believe that those who die after accepting Christ but before being baptized would go to heaven because repentance is what God seeks from us not baptism.”

My question to you is: Why do you have to be baptized if you’d go to Heaven regardless?

If your salvation does not require you to be baptized, then what’s the point in doing it? If you are able to enter the Gates of Heaven without baptism, then there is no point in being baptized in the first place.

I think it would be imperative for you to ask your church official this kind of question and think about the response he gives you. Will he back up his statement with verses?

I ask that you please be mindful of these scriptures and study over them yourself. I hope that these scriptures help you realize the true importance of baptism.

All scriptures were taken from the King James Version of the bible.

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

The key word in this scripture is “and.” He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. It’s clear in this scripture that baptism is a vital part of your salvation.

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also save us…”

Another verse that clearly states to us that baptism is an important part of our salvation. Baptism saves us.

Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. “

This verse states that our sins are washed away by baptism. Also, if baptism wasn’t an important part of salvation, why would the writer of acts use a sense of urgency in that verse?
Tarry – verb - to remain or stay, as in a place, to wait
In essence, this verse states, “Why do you wait? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Why would the writer of Acts give this sort of sense of urgency if it were not a vital part of your salvation? If baptism didn’t matter, what would be the point of giving off such a sense of urgency? The reason is because it is important to our salvation.

The Bible teaches that there six steps to Salvation. We are to:

Hear the Word of God
Rom 10:17 - “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Believe
Hebrews 11:6 - “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that he is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”

Repent
Acts 17:30 – “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:”


Confess that Jesus is the Son of God
Acts 8:36 - "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Be Baptized
Mark 16:16 - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Be Faithful Until Death
Revelation 2:10 - “Be faithful until death, and I will give you a crown of life.”

We are commanded to do ALL of these things, being mindful that each step being as important as the other. We are not commanded to do some of these things. We must hear the word. We must believe. We must repent. We must confess. We must be baptized. And we must be faithful. Without one of these things, we cannot have Salvation.

I ask that you please read over these scriptures and study diligently the Word of God. If you have ANY questions or comments, please feel free to share them.

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"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
Hebrews 11:7

Obedience to God is part of salvation (Hebrews 5:9) therefore baptism is part of salvation.

The grace of God is conditional upon our obedience to His will. (Matthew 7:21) Note in Romans 1:5 that the apostle Paul said he received grace for obedience to the faith.

The Bible says baptism places into Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3-4) There is no salvation outside Jesus Christ, therefore baptism is much much more than a symbolic act.

Jesus told Nicodemus that "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

Will, I, too, am glad to see your interest in the truth. Perhaps the best way to understand baptism is that it is something the subject does not do. It is act performed on someone by someone else. If someone dies and you bury them, the dead person does no work. We are to die to sin and be buried in baptism (Romans 6). Peter told the Pentecost crowd, "Let everyone of you be baptized..." If baptism is done TO someone who dies spiritually, then how does the dead one do a work?

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"that in all things he might have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

I can't add anything to this thread except AMEN!!

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

...well, yes I can after all.

Baptist: Believe that men are not baptized in order to be saved but because they are saved.

Bible: John 6:44-45; Romans 10:17; John 8:24; Hebrews 11:6; Luke 13:3; Acts 17:30; Matthew 10:32; Romans 10:9-10; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Corinthians 15:58

I think I will go with what Bible says myself.

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I think we all need to understand that works are necessary for salvation. Many today believe that the fact that works won't save us means they are not necessary for salvation. This is not true. In order for us to be able to earn our salvation we would have to be able to repay all of what it cost to save us. Nothing we can do could ever possibly come close to repaying God for the life of His Son. Our obedience to God will never bring Jesus down off the cross.

whether baptism is a work or not makes not one shred of difference in the scheme of redemption. It is an act of obedience in submitting to it.

Jesus said in Matthew 10:32-33

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Confession is a work of righteousness, an act of obedience to the will of God. Paul said:

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession is a work that is absolutely necessary if one wants to be saved. Repentance is the same thing. Consider Luke 13:3. Jesus says if we don't repent, we'll perish. That's the hardest of all the works to obey yet there is no dispute over it. And repentance is a work of righteousness in obedience to God's will.

Works cannot be separated from our salvation. They will never be sufficient to earn or merit our salvation, but they are still required of us nonetheless.

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, but never ever forget that you are still unprofitable and unworthy. Salvation is still a gift because we can't earn it. This does not excuse us from them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate, Labor for the meat that endureth unto salvation, reach for the prize, persevere to the end.

Once we all realize that works of righteousness through obedience to the will of God are required for salvation but will never completely earn it, we can move foreward towards unity of thought on baptism.

Luke 17:9-10
Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'
NKJV

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"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him." 1 John 3:18-19

The church of Christ at Granby

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13
One of those verses in the Bible that leaves no room for arguement on its meaning. I think that verse alone says that simply call on his name. There is no cliff not saying you have to be baptised. My point is I am trying to clear that part of the discussion up, call upon the name of the Lord and you can be saved. Woot go God.

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James 4:14.

Cody, there is more. God says more in His word than just this verse because there is more than this verse.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Matthew 7:21-23 (these people did not do all of God's will but called on His name)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So then Mark 16:16, Matthew 20:28 ("Woot to Christ" as those are His Words) Also, if baptism has no meaning, then Peter shouldn't have said Acts 2:38 to the large number of people that di follow and heed the words. And I guess Phillip lied to the eunuch in Acts 8:36-38.

You want to use just one verse...go ahead...because it is interesting how demons "just believed" but are not gonig to be saved...

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Romans 16:16 1 Thess. 5:17 1 Thess. 5:22 1 Tim. 6:12 2 Tim 2:15

I might add...

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Many who will follow that broad path to destruction (Matt. 7:13) will believe that all that is necessary for salvation is pray and accept Jesus into their heart, which they claim is calling on the name of the Lord. However, this is not what the Scriptures teach us.

Those who fail to study and rightly divide the Word forget that just a few verses before this verse that Paul expresses part of what calling on the name of the Lord is...

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

We must confess with our mouth (before other men) that Jesus is Lord.

Remember the eunuch's confession in Acts 8, and how Jesus said in Matthew 10:32 that we must confess Him before men?

We must also believe. So here we have believing and confessing Jesus is Lord as part of calling on the name of the Lord. No prayer is mentioned in these verses.

Think about it... if Paul is somehow claiming that calling on the name of the Lord is nothing more than praying to God then he is contradicting himself in Romans chapter 6 where he explains baptism is necessary for salvation. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself. Preachers that are preaching this are just plain wrong and are trying to support a doctrine made up by men, not from God.

Consider carefully Acts chapter 2. This is the first time the gospel message was preached after the ascension of Jesus. Remember Jesus commanded the Great Commission "beginning in Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47). Peter preached and made the similar statement, quoting Joel 2:32...

Here's Joel...

Joel 2:32(a) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

Now Peter...

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Now remember that at the same time Peter was preaching this gospel message in Jerusalem that he obeyed what Jesus taught the apostles and preached exactly what Jesus commanded them to teach, which we learned in Luke was "repentance and remission of sins". Peter finished the gospel message and told the people what they needed to do to "call on the name of the Lord"...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You see... Peter told them exactly what calling on the name of the Lord is, and exactly what Jesus commanded the apostles to preach.

Let's see how Joel 2:32/Romans 10:13 harmonize with Acts 2:38 so well...

(And it shall come to pass) = (Then Peter said to them)
(that whosoever will) = (every one of you)
(call on) = (repent and be baptized)
(the name of the Lord) = (in the name of Jesus Christ)
(shall be saved) = (for the remission of sins)

Calling on the name of the Lord would include repentance and baptism for the remission of sins.

Of course as brother Steven has already shown... Acts 22:16 puts the lid on it.

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In Christ,
brother Sonnie

I'm jumping in on an old discussion, but for sake of clarification it is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that opened the flood gates of grace and forgiveness. The apostles preached the RESURRECTION. We are saved by this gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) and baptism is the burial that preceeds our resurrection (Romans 6:1-5 and Colossians 2:12). It is absolutely a matter of obedience, but there could not have been a resurrection without Jesus' death and burial. Likewise, we must die, be buried and our Savior raises us up (Ephesians 2:4-6) in grace. Notice all three inherent in Colossians 3:1-4 - "if" you have been raised follows the "if you have died" (Colossians 2:20) and "when you were buried" (2:12) teachings.

Teaching the cross is not false teaching, but it may be incomplete teaching. We must proclaim the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 -the gospel) and we must obey that death, burial and resurrection (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - obey the gospel). His death was NOT enough. It was His sacrificial death and His RESURRECTION that opened the way of salvation by grace through faith.