Lets say your theology is correct for a moment. Then it follows that every person requires water baptism for Salvation. This would automatically forfeit most "Christians" from going to heaven, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Alliance, Catholics.. millions of people. This question has been debated for centuries. Most Denominations have a way of sending other Christians to hell, via tithing, baptism, Holy Spirit Baptism, smoking, yada yada. Many churches teach that you won't make it unless your sprinkled. I am glad these church leaders and your church leaders are not God.
Here is my point. God is a covenant God. Signs of His Covenants are the rainbow, circumcision, communion, and for the New Covenant, Baptism. I put forth that water baptism is a symbolic outward sign of New Covenant.
This is why Jesus says"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV). If you don't understand God's covenants, then you won't understand how baptism would fits into it all.
In the Abrahamic covenant all males were circumsised as a sign of the covenant. Circumcision and Baptism are even brought together in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). This is not a circumcision of the flesh but a circumsision of the heart. Here we see the circumcision was a symbolic sign of the old covenant.
The Noahic covenant, God put up a rainbow as a sign to Himself. Gen 9:15 And I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. We had this example in church today.
I am saying that Baptism replaces the old circumcision because there is no shedding of blood in baptism, because Christ's blood has been shed, however just as circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, water baptism is a sign of the New Covenant. It is an outward declaration of an inward regenerative Spiritual reality.
Scripture furthermore tells us that it is the gospel that saves (not water baptism) "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
Paul tell us that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptise.For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). So Paul places a very low priority on Baptism. Does he do so because as you guys say, the salvation of millions is at stake unless they are baptised? No, he doesn't. Was Paul scrambling to Baptise people so that they would be save by baptism? No, and no. To say that there is something more that we must do for salvation is a doing, and very dangerous, because it builds our own stuff onto what Christ has already done presumptively on our part, in order to complete Salvation.
So, I maintain that water baptism is not necesary for salvation.
That being said, I follow with Heb 6:1 Therefore, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Respectfully submitted.
Robbie.

So is Jesus less enlightned than you? Do you and those of the denominational world have more wisdom than God? I say this not to mock you but to try to help you realize what you are really saying.

You say no to God when He says this:

Mark 16:14-16
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Take it or leave it. No long post or meeting of mind can ever take the place of the will of the Lord Jesus. Through baptism we come in contact with the blood of Christ and His grace which forgives us of our sins.

Romans 6:2-4
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Will you tell Peter in the Holy Spirit, he is wrong when he looks at you when your heart is pricked with sadness and ask, what must we do? When he says what to do in Acts 2:38, will you tell him, "you know, I do not think this is right"?

Who are we to tell God this is not right or this is not what He meant to say. Would our loving God give us something confusing? Would He give us a gospel unknowable that He sent His Son to die for in our place? No! The only confusion is that men do not like what God has said and satan wants us to not see the sense in the gospel as it really is because so long as satan can confuse the heart of man and keep them from contacting the gospel of grace in Christ, they remain lost, loving a lie more than the Truth.

Will you tell Philip in Acts he lead these people astray when they obeyed the gospel? He baptized them into Jesus.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

What about this verse too?

Acts 8:38
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Was Paul misled or are you? This is what was told to him and what he did. If we follow you, we would not be doing the things of the inspired, but instead, of those like you. No matter the number or armys of the world or religious world that claim the name of Christ, I will obey CHRIST, not man, and so should you my friend. It is not within our self to make such decisions on our own. It is His gospel to us not ours to Him.


Should Saul have told those that taught him the gospel, after he already saw Jesus, believed and had faith, no, I disagree, this is a work like I did when I was a Pharisee? Don't confuse the teachings about works of the old law with the things God would have us to do in His gospel.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

I will allow others who have been involved in this discussion to comment on the majority of your post. But I will comment on this that I have quoted. Would you say also that believing is doing? Christ claimed it was a work. Did you also say a prayer or otherwise vocally announce Christ as your Savior? Would that also be a doing? Did you repent of your sins? If so would that be a doing?

Fill in the blank "...baptism does also _____ save us..." Is it now or not?

Why would Christ put such a priority on baptism, including it in his great commission? Why would the Holy Spirit place such a high priority on baptism, having Peter command it FOR the remission of sins in the first Gospel Sermon, if it wasn't important?

EDIT* I see Steven posted while I was typing my post.

__________________
John 6:67-68: "Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, 'Would ye also go away?' Simon Peter answered him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.'"

Your are correct, this does automatically forfeit most "Christians from going to heaven".... these groups you mention above are in need of being saved. Just because one calls himself a Christian, that does not make him one. To become a Christian one must according to the scriptures:
Hear the word of God : Romans 10:17,
Believe what the scriptures teach: Mark 16:16,
Repent of their sins: Luke 13:3 (Acts 2:38),
Confess Jesus as the Christ: Matthew 10:32-33,
Be baptized in water for the remission of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit: Acts 2:38.

Jesus forever connected salvation with water baptism in John 3:5. As a side note. The One baptism mentioned in Ephesians 4:5 is the same water baptism mentioned in Matthew 28:19. if Holy Spirit baptism could save, then why be baptized in water after receiving it? In Acts 10:47 Peter connects baptism with water baptism. This is the same thing he did in Acts 2:38! Why water. Jesus said in John 3:5 that man must be born by water and Spirit. In Acts chapter 2 peter did not tell the great multitude to just believe in their heart and they would be saved. he did not tell them to just say a prayer and they would be saved. he did not tell them to live a good life and they would be saved. he told them to be baptized and they would be saved. Paul is told that his sins will be "washed away" when he is baptized in Acts 22:16. Water baptism is ESSENTIAL if one is to be saved. I have no authority to change God's will on this.

The denominations have more problems than baptism, they are riddled with error and thus are in danger of missing eternal life with God. Please read Matthew 15:13 for the fate of their future. Denominations are NOT part of the Body of Christ because they are not the church taught in the new Testament (Matthew 16:18, Ephesians 1:21-22,). Denominations find their origin in man, not in scripture and thus can not be the "one body" spoken of in Ephesians 4:4.

Here is my plea, that every single person in a denomination will comes out of that denomination, embrace the gospel plan of salvation and be saved. If there be any erring Christians in the denominations (those who have left the Lord's Church and been yoked with a denomination) that they come forth and repent and enjoy the salvation that is theirs (1 John 1:9).

Yes, we are under a New Covenant, the New convents is brought forth by way of the blood of Christ (Luke 22:20). Under the new covenant water baptism (as shown above) is required. You seem to be getting your dispensations confused. You run them all together when they are separate and distinct. There was the Patriarchal Dispensation, the Mosaic Dispensation and now the Christian Dispensation.

You can not put this forth because the scriptures do not teach it.


What I want for you and for all mankind is what Paul said In Colossians 1:28-29 "We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me."

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

How are those who believe in Jesus Christ, under the old covenants (Abramic), or Noahic saved? They were not baptised, but looked forward by faith to His coming. Then Jesus preached the gospel to these souls unto salvation (can't find the verse right now).

You appear to search the scriptures and find verses that support your view. Jesus didn't to this always. For example under the old covenant law, Jesus should have stoned the adulterous woman (if he had done a proper search) yet He didn't. He released her because He was love, and loved her. Jesus was sent to the Jews, yet he ministered and healed many gentiles. The rich young ruler asked Jesus, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus said go and be baptised by John the Baptist". Oops, no He didn't. Jesus told him to sell all and follow Him, because Jesus knew this mans riches were ruling him. Jesus Himself baptised no one. He was a friend of sinners and is a friend of mine.
Mercy triumphs over judgement.Jas 2:13 For he who has shown no mercy shall have judgment without mercy, and mercy exults over judgment.
You do right to search the scriptures. They were written through inspiration by Jesus,and point to Him. But the Bible is not the very word of God, it is inspired scripture with its origins from the mouth of God. Jesus Christ is the very word of God.Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
So if you interpret scripture intellectually, or literally and not by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, you will undoubtedly arrive at a wrong conclusion.
Sincerely, robbie.

Hi Robbie,

Again, you are having some trouble separating the scriptures and who the application is for. You mix up your dispensations. It is a common mistake and one that is easily fixed with study.

Those who died under the different dispensations were required to be faithful to what was asked of them in that dispensation. The faithful all waited in Paradise of Hades (Luke 16) for the coming of Christ and his blood to atone for their sins. Please read Hebrews 9:11-15; and Hebrews 9:23-26. As for my use of BCV, is this not what 2 Timothy 3:16 teach us- to use the word of God? Are we not to hold to the pattern of sound doctrine (2 Timothy 1:13)?


These people lived during the Mosaic Dispensation. Baptism was not required of them. In addition, Jesus did not have to stone a single person as you argue.. he proved that he had the power to forgive sins, and this he did in the case you mention. Please read Mark 2:5-12. As for the rich young ruler, again, he is not living under the Christian dispensation, he was told what to do under the dispensation he lived- obey the Law.

God has gone to great length to show his love and mercy to us: Romans 5:8. But his mercy is extended upon those who are obedient to his word. The word by which they will be judged (John 12:48). God's great mercy is seen in Romans 6:23 is it not? Yet, to recieve the blessing mentioned in this verse one must have the "gift". Ephesians 1:3 teaches us that all spiritual blessings are in Christ. I have already shown you how one gets "in Christ" in my previous post.



You have confused the one that was the Word- Jesus (John 1:14) with the Word that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write: Acts 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:20-21. Paul did not vomit Jesus out of his mouth when he penned his epistles, he was lead by the Holy Spirit. So, I hope you can see that the scriptures were written by inspiration not by Jesus, as you claim, but by the Holy Spirit as Peter affirms.

POST EDIT: let me make this a bit more clear. John teaches us that the word became flesh (John 1:14). In doing this, Jesus is the one that will reveal to the world the Father. Hebrews 1:1-3. Even better would be the very gosple you mention- John. Notice John 1:18. Here we see that it is Jesus who has "explained God to us". He made him "know to man" as it had never been done before. How can this be? Simple... John 14:9 and Philippians 2:5-11.

And this is just what you have done my friend as I have shown you with book, chapter and verse. I hope this helps.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Since we have covered the ground that this thread was started for, I am going to go ahead and close it.

Robbie, please feel free to email or PM me with any questions you have regarding the answers that have been given and the scriptures used. I am always willing to study and would very much like to study with you.

Kindly,
Don

__________________
Don Gelles,
Preacher, Church of Christ in Hyde Park
Austin, Texas
www.hydeparkcoc.org

Please also notice that Jesus had to fulfill the law of Moses perfectly so when this deceiving crew brought the woman before him, they were not following the process outlined by the old law.

First, they were supposed to be witnesses and the witnesses were to be the ones that first threw the stones. Jewish law required the testimony of at least two witnesses who had seen the act. The Pharisees did not mention the names of the witnesses, nor did Jesus hear testimony from two witnesses, yet he was being asked to give judgment.

Second, both caught needed to be stoned, not only the woman, Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22.

Notice Jesus did not tell her, oh it's okay but instead said "go and sin no more".

True. To be truly born again of ice cream, one must be baptized into chocolate.

Mmm. Chocolate.

I'll be a Chocolatarian, and you can be a Butter Pecanist. At risk of taking this joke too far, any other ice cream denominationalists here?