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Originally Posted by Mission Soldier  Forgive me. I am coming in on this discussion late so I will address my questions to your last post and see where that leads. Instead of starting back at the very begining.
Why is it you sound alot like a calvanist right up to the point where you discuss Romans 9:22-24. Prior to this you are willing to grant GOD his sovereignty but the minute you hit Romans 9:23 you attempt to make man the sovereign one. |
Hi Greg...
Why not start at the beginning? If you are a Calvinist, then you should consider all that is written that so clearly disputes the false doctrine of Calvinism.
There is not the first sentence that I've written that would imply I am a Calvinist. In fact all of my comments are in agreement with the Bible and clearly prove I am a Christian.
Understanding and explaining the context of Romans 9:23 in no way takes away the fact that I fully understand God is sovereign.
Sounds like you may be doing the typical Calvinist dance and using a play on words. Keep it all in context and it is very clear.
Calvinist will generally take verse 23 out of context to try to prove an unScriptural point that it somehow references unconditional election, however, the preparation here is not referring to individuals for eternal life… it is referring to preparation for the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
If you will read all the scripture in context you will clearly learn this. This passage is showing us how God tolerated the sins of the Jewish people, and Gentiles, waiting for many of them to be saved. He could have destroyed the nation anytime He wanted to, but He waited because their race was essential to His plan of saving the world.
Now… this passage clearly refutes your doctrine because God is “longsuffering”, and He waited for many of the Jews, and Gentiles, to accept Christ.
There would be no reason for God to suffer and wait for them if He had already elected them individually. DING! DING! DING! DING! HELLO? He could have easily made the choice for them and not waited and suffered their sins, but He did not because He wanted it to be their choice and free will.
This no doubt verifies your doctrine is in fact false. Quote:
Originally Posted by Mission Soldier Romans 9:22-24 are a question being posed.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This question is answered in the remainig text. Romans 9:27-29 to be exact. If GOD was waiting for some to come to him ( a good thing for us) why would Isaiah cry out concerning Israel? As verse 9:28 says "for the Lord will carry out his sentance upon the earth full and without delay." This clearly goes against your belief that GOD was longsuffering.
Taking this text in context it most clearly supports predestination. As you can see this doctrine is both GOD-made and scriptural. |
I'm surprised you would attempt to hold to one passage to support predestination, given the host of other passages that clearly dispute it and would cause the Bible to be in contradiction if it did in fact somehow support predestination. Brother Haley does a wonderful job of breaking this down for easy understanding... much better than I can do myself.
Romans 9:22 -- Paul begins a rather lengthy question in this verse which appears to be hypothetical but is really rhetorical. He is describing the condition of the relationship between man and God as it actually exists. How can we be sure that he is not talking about Calvinism ... that God will save certain persons and **** other certain persons?
Does God really make the homosexual the way he is and then promise to destroy him? The key to finding an answer to this is in Rom. 9:24 -- "us whom he also called." Those who fit the description of being called will be blessed. Those who turn the call down will be condemned. It is not the case that God condemns those who cannot help what they do. All that any responsible person does is done by his or her own choice (see 2 Tim. 2:20-21).
God "endured" a great deal from mankind. He did so with "much longsuffering," which means He was "slow in avenging wrongs." If God created some men just to destroy them because they could only be sinful, why would He wait to do so? What kind of despot do these objectors think Jehovah is? Man, who has sinned against God, has "outfitted himself" unto destruction (this word does not describe annihilation). He is a self-made "vessel," a negative metaphor describing "an assistant in accomplishing an evil deed."
Romans 9:23 -- On the other hand, there are those to whom God will give abundant blessings Paul now states. These have been "afore-prepared." This verb is found only here and in Eph. 2:10, which speaks of "good works" which have been prepared to be done or fulfilled by faithful followers of Christ. It would seem, then, that these "good works" are accomplished by "good children," those who have "fitted themselves" to do them. These have met the conditions of election set forth by God in order to do these "good works" acceptably.
Romans 9:24 -- From what two groups do "the called" come? Jew and Gentile! Therefore, Paul has proved what he set out to in Rom. 1:17 -- that all can be saved and made righteous through the gospel, God's power to save (Rom. 1:16)! This was the wisdom even from the Old Testament. "Happy is the man that feareth alway; but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief" (Prov. 28:14). From the prophets we learn, "let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto Jehovah, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon" (Isa. 55:7).
Romans 9:25-27 -- The conclusion to all of these arguments is seen in Rom. 9:25-29. Paul reminds them that even the Old Testament prophets had spiritual Israel in mind (see Gal. 3:7-9,29). So now Jew and Gentile alike can be known by God as "my people; my beloved sons and daughters." In the quote from Isaiah (Rom. 9:27) a special term, remnant (found throughout the Old Testament), is used. In the Old Testament it re-ferred to faithful Jews who held on to God. In this context it refers to the Jew (first) who becomes a Christian and then to all Gentiles who become children of God.
Romans 9:28 -- What is this "calling" (Rom. 9:24-26)? It is the "bidding to come before the Majesty" that is issued through the gospel. In Rom. 9:28 it is equated with God's "executing His word upon the earth." It is "finished completely" with nothing left to follow. God will not administer another plan nor one different from that which He has already set forth. Election unto salvation for a certain kind of person will stand forever. Thus, only those who will comply with what the gospel teaches will enjoy eternal life, the gift that God has promised.
Romans 9:29 -- Paul now reminds us of the point he has been affirming throughout Rom. 8 and into this present chapter. The "Lord of Sabaoth" is the signature of God's sovereignty. He is the Master of the armies of Israel. He "left us a seed," which means that He "left behind" this "seed" called the remnant. This is what is known in Greek as a second class conditional phrase which stands as yet unfulfilled. When these words were spoken by Isaiah, the remnant was yet to be realized and filled up as God's seed. Here then we see the connection between the doctrine of the Book of Romans and that of Galatians. Let us remember who "the seed of Abraham" really are: the saved, Christians, the church, spiritual Israel (Gal. 3:7,28-29; 6:16). If it had not been for God's plan and choice, if God had to depend upon national Israel, salvation would not have been possible for all men. God, seeing the end from the beginning, made arrangements for his will to come through and for the "remnant."
To somehow twist this passage around and claim God is NOT longsuffering is deception at it's best... one reason why only a "remnant" will be saved. Those ravenous wolves will deceive many...
(See Matthew 7:13-15)
BTW: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Originally Posted by Mission Soldier First, it is necessary for us to spend our time and labor sharing the Gospel! As the disciples did in the book of Acts. We are to make disciples of those that GOD has brought to himself through our sharing the gospel ,as GOD has commanded us to do, by baptizing them in 3 names and teaching them to go forth and share the gospel as the disciples did. Not encouraging sinners to repent and turn to GOD. We have no bearing on who turns to GOD. GOD only has that power. Staying true to the sovereignty of GOD and not of man.
Second, staying true to the calvanist doctrine it is not possible for us ( the chosen)to ultimatly ignore the command of Jesus. This would make GOD very impotent and no man is capable of this no matter how hard they try or how full of themself they are. |
You gotta be kidding me...
We should do as the disciples did, but not encourage sinners to repent? If we do that somehow relieves God of His sovereignty? :holycow:
If we should do as the apostles did in Acts then we should encourage sinners to repent:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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Originally Posted by Mission Soldier I hope this clears up somethings for you.Although I'm sure this will bring up more questions for you. I look forward to your replay. |
Apparently I already had all things cleared up pretty well. You throwing comments and words around with no Scriptural support won't work here.
If you want to stay true to the Calvinist doctrine, it will be to your own destruction. As for me and my family, we will stay true to the doctrine of Christ.
