[quote=RJ Mac;1404][quote=Steven;1072]For one, in 2 Cor. 12 - Paul did not go to third heaven. He knew a man that did.

Secondly, the sky is called the heavens, space is also called the heavens and the spiritual realm is also called the heavens.. When Jesus went into heaven, which direction did He go? Somewhere in this journey, somehow, the spirit realm is entered. Paul did not know if this man who was taken up was in the flesh or not but only that he was taken up.

You say these things like you know for sure but RJ, you are speaking with no foundation or truth. This is troubling since this kind of broad teaching can get you into trouble.

You have to back up your thoughts with scripture and keep them in the proper context.

It is very clear that judgment happen after Jesus returns and we meet him in the sky. During this time, the righteous are in paradise and the unrighteous are in torment. How do we know this? Well because Jesus has not returned yet.

So Paul is a lier? Paul lied in the Holy Spirit? Think carefully about your implication before you quote or refer to any "man" or "scholar" and answer my question. The answer you give may come back to haunt you some day.

The reason you may be off on such things is because you listen to such people. Listen to the Word, not "scholars".


Our sky is called the 1st heaven, the universe the 2nd heaven and God’s throne
room, heaven, is the third heaven.

I am confident that what I have said is the truth and everything is backed up
with scriptures. To hum and haw, maybe or possibly, is not what God calls us
to do, 2Tim.1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power and of love
and of a sound mind.

Judgment happens the day you die. Lk.16 the rich man is in torment and Lazarus
is in Paradise, with a chasm in between which no one can cross. In fact judgment
begins with us here and now, 1Pe.4:17

Going into the what if’s is what started the restoration movement, a movement
which is not dead but on going. Not trying to figure out God’s word is what ails
the church today. thinking we have unlocked all the texts and understand all
there is stifles growth.

The if's are fine, so long as the Word is the Authority and answer. The problem never arises until we go on our own and begin to state things as if they are from God. You do not say, hey, I wonder, or I am thinking about such and such...instead you are saying..."this is how it is". Do you not see the danger in that? Especially since the very scripture themselves contradict you. Paul said he knew a man and you say he didn't but was really lying...Why do you say "wow" to us because we pointed out that you misquoted a verse about the burning bush, yet you now say Paul was a lier. All I have to say is WOW. If Paul lied about this, what else in the bible is a lie...

The implications are terrible. If what you say is true, you just might have proven that anyone can believe anything or dismiss the entire Word of God because God approves His apostles lying in the Holy Spirit....oh, well even worse, that this is not an inspired text and God does not exist. Do you see the domino effect you create in your free thinking?

1 John 2:21
I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

James 3:14
But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.

Romans 3:4-8
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“ That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.



You say I am misusing scriptures, out of context, but you don’t show how I am,
nor give the correct use.

You have been shown wrong at least two times, one, the angel in the bush, secondly, you said Paul lied.

I do have knowledge, I am a student of God’s word, and
the authority I have comes from the name of Jesus.


If we err, we can repent and move on, but if we haven’t tried, we bury our talent
under a rock.

Agreed, but the problem that is troubling is the lack of acceptance when something is shown to be wrong. To accept teaching is what makes a teacher a great one. We all have a teacher, God and the only Word and Teaching we have is from the letters of the inspired. To go outside of it is to go outside of what we know to be Truth and into the murky waters of opinion, which are fine, so long as we use righteous wisdom to make decisions. I learn things all the time and have changed my position when shown the rest of the scriptures or something I did not know before. It is okay to not know everything. But in these cases, it is straight forward and wrong.

It is my duty before God to stand for His Word and it is for you too. Again, I have to say though that when the Word says one thing, and you say another, that settles it and we, the man, loose every time.

Do you see what I am getting at? By this Word we will be judged my brother. I am only trying to help you and get you to see that you need to have more caution.

This is not about being right or wrong, who knows more and who is the most learned..This is about reverence to God and His Word, the only authority.


1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 4:6
If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Galatians 4:16
Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?