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Originally Posted by Peace-be-with-you  I do not feel they are dead at all.
MOST Christians petition the intercession of the saints. The apostle Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.
Col 4:3 - At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.
Rom 15:30 - ... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.
Jam 5:14 - Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord
Prayer appears to be the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did--another saint in the Body of Christ--to pray for us when we had a need.
Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian -a saint- to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.
It is frequently asked, and reasonably so, how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.
Matt 28:19 - Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.
John 10:38 - ...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.
John 14:10-11- Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."
John 1:3 - What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.
John 17:11 - And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
John 17:21-22 - ... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.
Paul put it succinctly:
1 Cor 13:12 - At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.
1 John 3:2 - Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. |
Praying for someone is not the same as taking that person's place before God, a place only Christ can do. Although He was in the flesh and was in every way like us, He had no sin.
If you can, please show a scripture where we can take Jesus' place.
David prayed that his son would not die and God decided to let the baby die. He was praying for the baby to live, for the baby but he has no authority but only a submissive heart seeking God's grace. To go beyond this level of petition is not possible for a human except through Christ.
Paul petitioned that everyone pray through Christ and in the love of the Spirit for him. Yes, they are praying for Paul but not taking Christ's place in the process. That is the difference here.
Romans 15:30
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me,
2 Samuel 12:16 and 22-23
16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground.
22 And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD[a] will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”